2 minutes ago, Jehan Menasis said:

No. The TIE/sf rose not because defenders fell, but for the arrival of lightweight frame and pattern analizers.

That's 100% correct. The Quickdraw/Vessery/Striker (or OL) built arrived (and proved successful) before the nerf. Problem is the SF seems to be the best Imperial option but cant manage to get to top 8s regularly.

46 minutes ago, Sekac said:

So what's your explanation for why they weren't seen then and are seen now?

They were there, nobody took them. Post FAQ, people are taking them. I'm going out on a limb and assuming the decline of ubiquitous defenders, and the rise of TIE/sf are related events. Most likely because the FAQ adjusted the relative power of these two ships.

I'm open to other theories, though.

For all but the most recent expansions, yes. Because Defenders and Palp were competitive at high levels of play, and the others proved not to be in the current meta. Interceptors have been around for a long time. Do you really think people just forgot about them when x7 came out? No, they became too risky to fly due to what Rebels and Scum were fielding, thus were shelved.

Someone would have tried the /sf out and worked out a good team even with Palp and Defenders around. If people liked it, it would have been more universally accepted. But even with the discovery of the /sf, the Empire isn't suddenly competitive again. They are a solid piece, but not fantastic like what it has to content with.

I think a disconnect between us is you seem to see the loss in standings acceptable in the quest to broaden the Imperial list type. I see it as the pieces that kept them in competition for top slots (which all three factions should be) were toned down to 2nd tier (a conclusion based on recent results), leaving nothing top tier for Imps. That, to me, is not worth the price. Once again, why are the Imps the ones who are expected to get on without their crutches when the other two factions still use theirs freely?

7 minutes ago, Thormind said:

There is absolutely no decrease in defender counter. Everything is still there because it's good no matter what you are facing... Palob is IMO one of the best counter to defender. He was in the top 8 even if there was no defender to be seen. If anything, the meta now has MORE counter than ever: Blocking scouts, stressbots, Asajj... That's the biggest problem with the nerf. It made Imperial more sensitive to the things that were already dominating.

And things that easily came back into dominance, like the Stresshog.

22 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

I think a disconnect between us is you seem to see the loss in standings acceptable in the quest to broaden the Imperial list type. I see it as the pieces that kept them in competition for top slots (which all three factions should be) were toned down to 2nd tier (a conclusion based on recent results), leaving nothing top tier for Imps. That, to me, is not worth the price. Once again, why are the Imps the ones who are expected to get on without their crutches when the other two factions still use them freely?

When I take a list to a tournament, I want to take what I enjoy flying, knowing I'll never be in competition for the top slots anyway. So yeah, I guess I appreciate options when it comes to my preferred faction, rather than worrying so much about the tippy top.

I've seen a couple of comments to the effect of, "Why don't those people who were flying Imperials just get a clue and fly other factions?"

First off, this game is VERY costly to play. Especially relative to other games out there that many gamers can afford. I made a conscious, and budgeted, decision at the beginning of my X-Wing play two years ago to buy and fly Imperials. Mainly because my best friend who got me into the game was flying Rebels (and Scum wasn't really a full faction yet).

So hundreds (maybe thousands?) of dollars later the insulting response by so many is "just fly other factions" or "just buy more ships".

Seriously, how insulting is that?

I'm fairly well off, and may have more money. But what about the college students, or young parents, service industry workers, ect all who don't have a lot of disposable income? That is your answer to them as well? "Well, too bad, you just need to be able to afford more ships."

None of that is constructive, and as I said in my previous post is basically giving the middle finger to a third or more of the X-Wing community. You want this to turn into 40K with the bickering, and imbalance, and frankly rude people at events? That's the road we're heading down with stuff like some of what I'm seeing on the forums (and some podcasts as well).

2 minutes ago, Waaaaaampa said:

I've seen a couple of comments to the effect of, "Why don't those people who were flying Imperials just get a clue and fly other factions?"

First off, this game is VERY costly to play. Especially relative to other games out there that many gamers can afford. I made a conscious, and budgeted, decision at the beginning of my X-Wing play two years ago to buy and fly Imperials. Mainly because my best friend who got me into the game was flying Rebels (and Scum wasn't really a full faction yet).

So hundreds (maybe thousands?) of dollars later the insulting response by so many is "just fly other factions" or "just buy more ships".

Seriously, how insulting is that?

I'm fairly well off, and may have more money. But what about the college students, or young parents, service industry workers, ect all who don't have a lot of disposable income? That is your answer to them as well? "Well, too bad, you just need to be able to afford more ships."

None of that is constructive, and as I said in my previous post is basically giving the middle finger to a third or more of the X-Wing community. You want this to turn into 40K with the bickering, and imbalance, and frankly rude people at events? That's the road we're heading down with stuff like some of what I'm seeing on the forums (and some podcasts as well).

As far as miniature games go X-Wing is actually quite cheap, especially if you only fly one faction. And if you've spent thousands of dollars you'd probably also have multiple factions, not just one.

Regardless, a lot of us collect (and possibly play) all factions, so I don't think people are trying to be insulting saying to fly a different faction, just making incorrect assumptions based on their own experiences

2 minutes ago, Sekac said:

When I take a list to a tournament, I want to take what I enjoy flying, knowing I'll never be in competition for the top slots anyway. So yeah, I guess I appreciate options when it comes to my preferred faction, rather than worrying so much about the tippy top.

Pre-nerf x7 and Palp didn't stop anyone from doing that. You could have made a triple Interceptor or quad Bomber list at anytime. The nerf didn't magically make those options available again.

7 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

As far as miniature games go X-Wing is actually quite cheap, especially if you only fly one faction. And if you've spent thousands of dollars you'd probably also have multiple factions, not just one.

Regardless, a lot of us collect (and possibly play) all factions, so I don't think people are trying to be insulting saying to fly a different faction, just making incorrect assumptions based on their own experiences

Hey he might be this guy:

Those TIE's aren't always cheap...

I agree people who saying that are probably playing at least two factions, but at the same time "faction pride" is a big thing in this game, and it's kind of sad Empire is percieved to now be sitting where rebels were pre-deadeye nerf. For the time being I would say play your imperials and fly casual.

12 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

Pre-nerf x7 and Palp didn't stop anyone from doing that. You could have made a triple Interceptor or quad Bomber list at anytime. The nerf didn't magically make those options available again.

Yeah, but why would you? There were strictly better options. If you cared about your performance at all you wouldn't take things that are just worse than other options in the same faction. Now there are a variety of semi-competitive lists, rather than 1 or 2 lists that are way better than anything else in the faction.

8 minutes ago, FlyingAnchors said:

Hey he might be this guy:

Those TIE's aren't always cheap...

I agree people who saying that are probably playing at least two factions, but at the same time "faction pride" is a big thing in this game, and it's kind of sad Empire is percieved to now be sitting where rebels were pre-deadeye nerf. For the time being I would say play your imperials and fly casual.

I'd agree witcplay what you want. Practicing a mediocre list will usually give better results than picking up a random netlist you haven't practicedI play all 3 factions but I've probably played empire most of the three lately just cause that's where my current favorite list is.

2 minutes ago, Sekac said:

Yeah, but why would you? There were strictly better options. If you cared about your performance at all you wouldn't take things that are just worse than other options in the same faction. Now there are a variety of semi-competitive lists, rather than 1 or 2 lists that are way better than anything else in the faction.

To answer your question: personal preference, wanting to play something different, "not worrying so much about the tippy top", "knowing you'd never be in competition for top slots anyway", and a variety of other reasons.

once again, those semi-competitive lists already existed. All they required to be fielded was someone who wanted to do it. That's it. Palp and x7 didn't stop people from doing that if they really wanted to. It all comes down to personal wants from the game.

1 hour ago, Jehan Menasis said:

No. The TIE/sf rose not because defenders fell, but for the arrival of lightweight frame and pattern analizers.

But if the /7 and Plap nerf hadn't happened nobody would care about the /sf with or without lightened frame.

8 minutes ago, BlodVargarna said:

But if the /7 and Plap nerf hadn't happened nobody would care about the /sf with or without lightened frame.

Untrue. As Thormind pointed out, QuickDraw was already being worked into lists. People would have eventually latched onto them for something new. And if someone had come up with a killer /sf list, you better believe other people would try it out.

1 minute ago, SabineKey said:

Untrue. As Thormind pointed out, QuickDraw was already being worked into lists. People would have eventually latched onto them for something new. And if someone had come up with a killer /sf list, you better believe other people would try it out.

QuickDraw was being worked into lists, but mostly seemed to be baffle self-damage variants to get free activation phase shots, which really isn't the best way to fly him

1 minute ago, VanderLegion said:

QuickDraw was being worked into lists, but mostly seemed to be baffle self-damage variants to get free activation phase shots, which really isn't the best way to fly him

I agree, but I saw it as a way to get a cheaper TIE/D with better spike damage. I think the version we see today would have come along eventually.

36 minutes ago, Sekac said:

Yeah, but why would you? There were strictly better options. If you cared about your performance at all you wouldn't take things that are just worse than other options in the same faction. Now there are a variety of semi-competitive lists, rather than 1 or 2 lists that are way better than anything else in the faction.

If you care about performance, why would you now though ?

Why pick a 'semi-competitive' Imperial list instead of a competitive Scum or Rebel list?

Your argument works in people that care enough about performance to only run the best lists within a faction, but not enough to switch factions when their chosen one is no longer competitive

10 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

I agree, but I saw it as a way to get a cheaper TIE/D with better spike damage. I think the version we see today would have come along eventually.

The SFs FCS in the System slot is at least as important to me as Lightweight Frame. Those re-rolls are huge for really hammering home damage. They are admittedly not at x7 tank levels of efficiency, but the SF can field a pair of very potent aces that can easily both be at PS 9 without really compromising combat efficiency.

14 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

I agree, but I saw it as a way to get a cheaper TIE/D with better spike damage. I think the version we see today would have come along eventually.

Not if /7 hadn't changed.

THe thing that's sad is these ships 3attack/ 3 evade /3 shield/ with free evade actions are still objectively very good, especially with an unlimited range auto crit or auto evade from me Plap, it's just that the FAQ made these lists a little (very slightly) harder to play, they now needed more skill. But Plap players lost heart.

Just now, Biophysical said:

The SFs FCS in the System slot is at least as important to me as Lightweight Frame. Those re-rolls are huge for really hammering home damage. They are admittedly not at x7 tank levels of efficiency, but the SF can field a pair of very potent aces that can easily both be at PS 9 without really compromising combat efficiency.

Agree. I have been enjoying playing around with the First Order team of QuickDraw, Backdraft, and Omega Leader. Plus, with all this stress around, FCS becomes even more inviting.

1 minute ago, BlodVargarna said:

Not if /7 hadn't changed.

THe thing that's sad is these ships are still objectively good, especially with an unlimited range auto crit or auto evade, it's just that the FAQ made these lists a little harder to play, they now needed more skill. But Plap players lost heart.

How do you know that? We have given examples of their use before the nerf. There are plenty of reasons why people would have experimented more with /sf even if x7 was untouched.

This is a tired old argument that didn't really convince me before, and certainly not now after the recent big events. Do you really think you are the only one to see this power and that no one has tried to capitalize on it? And even with that, they aren't keeping up with the other factions.

5 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

Agree. I have been enjoying playing around with the First Order team of QuickDraw, Backdraft, and Omega Leader. Plus, with all this stress around, FCS becomes even more inviting.

I keep looking for points for Primed Thrusters as well. With FCS modding your attacks and Primed Thrusters keeping the barrel roll open, you can take red moves or hold onto a stress pretty easily. The problem is that I keep cutting the thrusters for an initiative bid.

Just now, Biophysical said:

I keep looking for points for Primed Thrusters as well. With FCS missing your attacks and Primed Thrusters keeping the barrel roll open, you can take red moves or hold onto a stress pretty easily. The problem is that I keep cutting the thrusters for an initiative bid.

Working off suggestions from friends, I put Pattern Analyzer on QD, and Sensor Cluster on BD. That's worked out okay, but I haven't come up against a real stress list yet.

Here's a crazy thought-

Imperials are the only well balanced faction currently.

You open up the list builder and piece together an imperial list right now and you see a lot of ships that are fair in comparison to the other options. You feel like you are able to build a list without much deterrence from creativity coming from the knowledge that there are heavily undercosted ships (Jumpmasters, maybe Lancers) or game warping abilities (Rau, Biggs, Miranda) available.

The closest thing the Imperials have to that is still a Palp carrier, but after the nerf, I hardly think he is as heavy a presence on the imperials as the listed ships/pilots are for scum and Rebels.

18 minutes ago, Kdubb said:

Here's a crazy thought-

Imperials are the only well balanced faction currently.

Actually I totally agree. I basically decline all games from 'netlisted' players (or really anyone playing a toilet seat), and instead opt to play other Imperials. It's amazing. Suddenly everything is viable, you can have fun, and you can fly any Imp ship you want and still win. There's no overabundance of PWTs or TLTs or anything like that, it's like playing X-Wing back in the day.

At this point, I'm ready to just completely quit playing rebel and scum players- and form a league for Imps only. God that would be fun.

1 hour ago, VanderLegion said:

As far as miniature games go X-Wing is actually quite cheap, especially if you only fly one faction. And if you've spent thousands of dollars you'd probably also have multiple factions, not just one.

Regardless, a lot of us collect (and possibly play) all factions, so I don't think people are trying to be insulting saying to fly a different faction, just making incorrect assumptions based on their own experiences

If you bought a pair of each imperial ship, some templates, maybe the Epic ships (for Palp, ect.) then yes you are likely over $1000 investing into one faction.

I agree people usually don't try to be insulting. . .they just are.

If somebody thinks it's OK to say to the college kids, ect., with little funds that they shouldn't really show up to competitive tournaments anymore then I guess we have a completely different view on what this game is supposed to be.

Fact is, FFG has completely obliterated an entire faction. Anybody arguing otherwise right now either isn't paying enough attention, has some kind of weird vendetta against Imperial players, or is just trying to troll in here.