53 minutes ago, Sekac said:What about "Parattani or go home" was so healthy?
There was exactly one meta defining list before the FAQ. Now there is more than one. Seems like it moved in the right direction. Imps just need some new tools, rather than relying on the crutches of Olde.
Paratani indeed was getting the new hot thing, that Torp scout nerf was such a great idea, right? Deadeye: Small ships only 10/24/16, FAQ 4.2.2 ;-)
6 minutes ago, SabineKey said:I believe SEA is referring to the time period between the Deadeye nerf and Parattanni's discovery, where the meta was rather open.
Indeed, though I would include as well the time before the Deadeye nerf, as the torp scouts was at that time a beatable list already and the dominance had ended already. FFG was basically to late to the party by months, similar how they were too late with their Palpatine nerf. Kicking them when they are down is fun.
Now I am not going to say that Parattanni would have sort itself out, but I very much would have prefered a more targeted adjustment.
Someone link please to the world 2016 results and top 16 or even top 32.
6 hours ago, Lightrock said:I said it several times already and I suppose I'll say it again: imperials are out of options right now.
...
Well as I said before Imperials had the fewest options thanks to lack of upgrades. Sure they have the most pilots but many of those pilots are well terrible (Fel's Wrath comes to mind). So having more pilot does not make up for no upgrade slots.
Thing is I expect the imperial situation to get better with Wave 11. Thing is odds are Imperial lists are not going to be arc dodging lists. I expect more of a brute force approach from top imperial players adjusting to the new imperial meta, one on jousting firepower and a disregard for damage or losses.
Edited by MarinealverJust now, Marinealver said:Well as I said before Imperials had the fewest options thanks to lack of upgrades. Sure they have the most pilots but many of those pilots are well terrible (Fel's Wrath comes to mind). So having more pilot does not make up for no upgrade slots.
Thing is I expect the imperial situation to get better with Wave 11. Thing is odds are Imperial lists are not going to be arc dodging lists. I expect more of a brute force approach from top imperial players adjusting to the new imperial meta, one on jousting firepower and a disregard for damage or losses.
You know the weird part?
This whole thing totally reflects the doctrine shift from ANH-TFA. The First Order is all about fielding flat out better and more survivable ships. Funny that, eh?
9 minutes ago, Captain Lackwit said:You know the weird part?
This whole thing totally reflects the doctrine shift from ANH-TFA. The First Order is all about fielding flat out better and more survivable ships. Funny that, eh?
The "Hux approach".
12 minutes ago, Captain Lackwit said:You know the weird part?
This whole thing totally reflects the doctrine shift from ANH-TFA. The First Order is all about fielding flat out better and more survivable ships. Funny that, eh?
2 minutes ago, Smutpedler said:The "Hux approach".
Well I was thinking of lists that have great jousting efficiency, and will always in final salvo, Hence Brute Force!
Also you can't really call the 1stOrder doctrine more survivable. They are not like the T-70s but then again the Resistance was a splinter cell of the Republic so yeah I guess they still had less resources than 1st order.
So in terms of resources and manpower I guess this is the hierarchy.
Empire > Republic (old and new, both said no to army until a war started) > 1stOrder > Rebel Alliance > Resistance (because the Empire is defeated why continue the war against the despots?)
16 minutes ago, Marinealver said:
Well I was thinking of lists that have great jousting efficiency, and will always in final salvo, Hence Brute Force!
Also you can't really call the 1stOrder doctrine more survivable. They are not like the T-70s but then again the Resistance was a splinter cell of the Republic so yeah I guess they still had less resources than 1st order.
So in terms of resources and manpower I guess this is the hierarchy.
Empire > Republic (old and new, both said no to army until a war started) > 1stOrder > Rebel Alliance > Resistance (because the Empire is defeated why continue the war against the despots?)
I can call it more survivable. The First Order puts tons of resources into their soldiers.
All of those First Order stormtroopers we're seeing? Trained since childhood, like the Clones, but for far longer. I mean guys like Finn don't even have a real name. The First Order pours a lifelong investment into every single unit it has. Which is probably why they're not exactly huge, but we've seen what they can do with what they have. They have not failed to inflict considerable casualties or really even failed their objectives yet.
Yes, Starkiller Base was lost, but The Republic is in disarray. Starkiller Base's actions were Pyrrhic, and much more effective than the Death Star's.
3 minutes ago, Captain Lackwit said:I can call it more survivable. The First Order puts tons of resources into their soldiers.
All of those First Order stormtroopers we're seeing? Trained since childhood, like the Clones, but for far longer. I mean guys like Finn don't even have a real name. The First Order pours a lifelong investment into every single unit it has. Which is probably why they're not exactly huge, but we've seen what they can do with what they have. They have not failed to inflict considerable casualties or really even failed their objectives yet.
Yes, Starkiller Base was lost, but The Republic is in disarray. Starkiller Base's actions were Pyrrhic, and much more effective than the Death Star's.
Hopefully the next movie will clear that up because I still have no idea of the state of the republic. I think the Resistance has more recruits now though, and to be honest, why doesn't the Republic just adopt the resistance and have a standard army since they are now once again at war with the 1st order?
Ah you know forget it. Dark side bad, Light side good, stormtroopers are on the dark side, even when they were clones (execute order 66).
On X-wing List Juggler, I see 7 Imperial lists, 8 Rebel, and and 18 Scum. The rest have not been filled in yet.
I don't know the overall stats of how many lists from each faction were played, but it would be interesting to see how many started out and how many finished in the top 50, which I would consider a high level of play.
Scum is definitely the more predominant faction, but I'd like to see some numbers to see how it all stacks up.
4 minutes ago, Marinealver said:Hopefully the next movie will clear that up because I still have no idea of the state of the republic. I think the Resistance has more recruits now though, and to be honest, why doesn't the Republic just adopt the resistance and have a standard army since they are now once again at war with the 1st order?
Ah you know forget it. Dark side bad, Light side good, stormtroopers are on the dark side, even when they were clones (execute order 66).
I can tell you some things.
The Resisance was formed by General Organa after she was ostracized for a multitude of reasons. Her blood relation to the Dark Lord of The Sith did not help, but neither did her call to arms regarding the First Order. Individuals such as Mon Mothma lived as idealists, and dismissed Leia's claims. There was a treaty that Leia's suggested actions would breach, and the New Republic would not allow war to come so soon after it had ended.
They were wrong.
Leia was right, and she'd gotten some backing from unidentified sources within The New Republic. Older fighters but dedicated pilots, and people very dedicated to Leia such as Poe Dameron. What we see on D'qar is basically it. That's most of the Resistance. They'd previously used hit and run tactics to weaken and undermine the First Order.
You think the Rebellion was small? The Resistance is a couple of dudes by comparison. But now there is war, now there is chaos, and there is effectively no government to fight it.
What remains of the New Republic is just that. The First Order and New Republic are effectively on equal footing, by my understanding.
Just now, Captain Lackwit said:I can tell you some things.
The Resisance was formed by General Organa after she was ostracized for a multitude of reasons. Her blood relation to the Dark Lord of The Sith did not help, but neither did her call to arms regarding the First Order. Individuals such as Mon Mothma lived as idealists, and dismissed Leia's claims. There was a treaty that Leia's suggested actions would breach, and the New Republic would not allow war to come so soon after it had ended.
They were wrong.
Leia was right, and she'd gotten some backing from unidentified sources within The New Republic. Older fighters but dedicated pilots, and people very dedicated to Leia such as Poe Dameron. What we see on D'qar is basically it. That's most of the Resistance. They'd previously used hit and run tactics to weaken and undermine the First Order.
You think the Rebellion was small? The Resistance is a couple of dudes by comparison. But now there is war, now there is chaos, and there is effectively no government to fight it.
What remains of the New Republic is just that. The First Order and New Republic are effectively on equal footing, by my understanding.
Mon Mothma's now the pacifist? I know her hawkish politics were more defined in what is now legends so movie wise we have no idea of telling how aggressive she was.
Also I know the Resistance was smaller than the Rebellion. Resistance was more like the Marquis from Star Trek, only thing is the federation disbanded starfleet and then left them selves open by the romulan super weapon oh wait... By The Force, J.J. Abrhams you nerfing Nerf Herder!
Just now, Marinealver said:Mon Mothma's now the pacifist? I know her hawkish politics were more defined in what is now legends so movie wise we have no idea of telling how aggressive she was.
Also I know the Resistance was smaller than the Rebellion. Resistance was more like the Marquis from Star Trek, only thing is the federation disbanded starfleet and then left them selves open by the romulan super weapon oh wait... By The Force, J.J. Abrhams you nerfing Nerf Herder!
Mothma is just an example. The New Republic's senate was defined by limp wristed politics of pacifism and disarming. It's very shameful of a faction born from war to not recognize the signs of oncoming war.
7 hours ago, Pretty Green said:I remember reading many posts about "The Emperor and Defenders are still good at the competitive level, just wait and see". Well now we see.
That nerf was a huge mistake from FFG, listening too much to the whiners.
I don't think the need was so much about whiners, but about acknowledging that Palp + X was pushing any other Imperial archetype out of the meta.
In terms of faction percentages, this will all shake out in LJ eventually, but as noticed upstream there will be skew in the data because Worlds.
Imps are kind of lame right now 
I wish they there better because I love the themes of the faction. Defenders are still very powerful, but sadly they are weak to The Great Black Hope, Aggressor TLT spam.
1 hour ago, SabineKey said:I believe SEA is referring to the time period between the Deadeye nerf and Parattanni's discovery, where the meta was rather open.
As SEApocalypse stated above, the deadeye nerf was 10/24/16. Paratanni took over in what, December? January? So maybe a 2-3 month window that closed without FFG's fiddling? They can't be blamed for it not being like that anymore. Paratanni was just next level list creation. There is no nerfing it back to a fleeting but diverse meta, as much as we all wish there was.
The problem with Imperials has always been they're most swingy with their power level. It's tricky to balance high agility and low hit points. Either you're dodging everything all the time, and you do well and your opponent is frustrated. Or if you ever don't dodge, you get one-shotted, and that sucks for you but your opponent is happy he finally killed the little bastard. Scum and rebels can take a bit of damage and pull through which gives the opponent a much more satisfying "almost gotcha", and you a "whew, that was close" feeling. Tricky to find a mechanical balance with such binary results.
So usually Imps fixes are much more heavy-handed than rebels. Compare the TIE/adv title and ATC, as well as x7, autothrusters (imps were the primary beneficiary), and Palpatine himself; to the likes of R2-D6 and B-wing/E2. Chardaan Refit and Integrated Astro were the best rebels got, and those were enough to make those ships fringe.
The flipside to that is when they get the balance wrong, their nerfs end up being way harsher. The phantom nerf, x7, and Palp. The old de-cloak was bad for the game, and x7 and Palp were badly balanced within the faction. There was so much infallible green dice fixing that perfectly viable ships like TIE/sf were collecting dust.
It sucks that the nerf knocked imperials off the tippy top tier, but it opened their entire faction up. It was shuttles, defenders, and interceptors before, and there's s lot more out there now. They just need a few more small boosts like Lightweight Frame and they'll be right back at the top.
8 hours ago, BlodVargarna said:Blame FFG for making the ridiculously OP Jump Master. An ugly model based off of a guy wearing toilet paper on his head, on screen for 5 seconds.
BUMP
9 hours ago, Rinzler in a Tie said:You're absolutely right.
Imperials have gone from untouchable (Fel+Stealth+Autothrusters+Palp) to paper mache.Defenders were the tops. Now they don't even make Top 16 at Worlds. FFG really screwed up - and I half blame this forum.
Yeah, but untouchable is dumb. Defenders were stupid. They are still really good. The problem is more advanced slam with bombs, and fenn being insane.
37 minutes ago, Sekac said:As SEApocalypse stated above, the deadeye nerf was 10/24/16. Paratanni took over in what, December? January? So maybe a 2-3 month window that closed without FFG's fiddling? They can't be blamed for it not being like that anymore. Paratanni was just next level list creation. There is no nerfing it back to a fleeting but diverse meta, as much as we all wish there was.
The problem with Imperials has always been they're most swingy with their power level. It's tricky to balance high agility and low hit points. Either you're dodging everything all the time, and you do well and your opponent is frustrated. Or if you ever don't dodge, you get one-shotted, and that sucks for you but your opponent is happy he finally killed the little bastard. Scum and rebels can take a bit of damage and pull through which gives the opponent a much more satisfying "almost gotcha", and you a "whew, that was close" feeling. Tricky to find a mechanical balance with such binary results.
So usually Imps fixes are much more heavy-handed than rebels. Compare the TIE/adv title and ATC, as well as x7, autothrusters (imps were the primary beneficiary), and Palpatine himself; to the likes of R2-D6 and B-wing/E2. Chardaan Refit and Integrated Astro were the best rebels got, and those were enough to make those ships fringe.
The flipside to that is when they get the balance wrong, their nerfs end up being way harsher. The phantom nerf, x7, and Palp. The old de-cloak was bad for the game, and x7 and Palp were badly balanced within the faction. There was so much infallible green dice fixing that perfectly viable ships like TIE/sf were collecting dust.
It sucks that the nerf knocked imperials off the tippy top tier, but it opened their entire faction up. It was shuttles, defenders, and interceptors before, and there's s lot more out there now. They just need a few more small boosts like Lightweight Frame and they'll be right back at the top.
I keep seeing this sentiment like the nerf made the other Imperial stuff suddenly playable. It was playable the whole time, just not to the levels required by the meta. That theory has thus far been corroborated by major tournament results since the nerf. While the /sf is a solid ship, it is still not doing enough. Because of their lack of ability to compete at those high levels, I think the attempt to "open up the faction" has failed. Until trends revearse and Imperials are seen in those upper level, I will continue to think of it as a failure.
9 hours ago, Johen Dood said:Wiped out with a single FAQ. Way to go FFG, bang up job there. You'll wipe a faction off the competitive tables entirely, but you STILL can't figure out that you need to increase the cost of Jumpmasters and remove Contracted Scouts' EPT. Just pathetic.
Except that even as they run around with more agressive balance patches via FAQ, they have never, ever, changed the actual written stats on the ship card, only the rules text on a card as appropriate. As that is where both the price, the stats, and the EPT slot are... it's a problem, but I don't think they haven't figured it out. They just don't know what to do about it.
55 minutes ago, SabineKey said:I keep seeing this sentiment like the nerf made the other Imperial stuff suddenly playable. It was playable the whole time, just not to the levels required by the meta. That theory has thus far been corroborated by major tournament results since the nerf. While the /sf is a solid ship, it is still not doing enough. Because of their lack of ability to compete at those high levels, I think the attempt to "open up the faction" has failed. Until trends revearse and Imperials are seen in those upper level, I will continue to think of it as a failure.
I understand they were set back relative to scum and rebels, I was referring to balance within the faction. Quickdraw is and has been good the entire time, but nobody noticed because Palp fixed green dice mostly, and TIE/sf isn't a green dice investment. Palp and x7 were undeniably better choices for imperials because free evades and reliable greens are too good to say no to.
Now you can fly defenders, bombers, TIE/sf, TIE/fo TIE swarm, TIE strikers, TIE phantoms, Upsilon shuttles, and occasional interceptors (Carnor). None of those lists are top tier, but at least imperial players are off their crutches. Just inject a few more boosts and they'll be right as rain.
12 minutes ago, Sekac said:I understand they were set back relative to scum and rebels, I was referring to balance within the faction. Quickdraw is and has been good the entire time, but nobody noticed because Palp fixed green dice mostly, and TIE/sf isn't a green dice investment. Palp and x7 were undeniably better choices for imperials because free evades and reliable greens are too good to say no to.
Now you can fly defenders, bombers, TIE/sf, TIE/fo TIE swarm, TIE strikers, TIE phantoms, Upsilon shuttles, and occasional interceptors (Carnor). None of those lists are top tier, but at least imperial players are off their crutches. Just inject a few more boosts and they'll be right as rain.
*shakes head* You could fly them anyway. That's the point. The idea that you couldn't fly another imperial ship because Defenders and Palp existed is absurd. And if they were worth digging into, they would be used because not all players just watch what top tables are doing (including people who go to the top tables).
You say Imperials are at least off their crutches. I will agree with that once the Rebels and Scum have been kicked off theirs.
And those boosts you speak of would have worked with or without the nerfs.
3 minutes ago, SabineKey said:*shakes head* You could fly them anyway. That's the point. The idea that you couldn't fly another imperial ship because Defenders and Palp existed is absurd. And if they were worth digging into, they would be used because not all players just watch what top tables are doing (including people who go to the top tables).
So what's your explanation for why they weren't seen then and are seen now?
They were there, nobody took them. Post FAQ, people are taking them. I'm going out on a limb and assuming the decline of ubiquitous defenders, and the rise of TIE/sf are related events. Most likely because the FAQ adjusted the relative power of these two ships.
I'm open to other theories, though.
7 minutes ago, Sekac said:They were there, nobody took them. Post FAQ, people are taking them. I'm going out on a limb and assuming the decline of ubiquitous defenders, and the rise of TIE/sf are related events. Most likely because the FAQ adjusted the relative power of these two ships.
No. The TIE/sf rose not because defenders fell, but for the arrival of lightweight frame and pattern analizers.
11 hours ago, MalusCalibur said:I think it's largely unimportant whether or not any of us think those nerfs were or were not justified - FFG are not going to roll them back (if they were going to they'd have done so by now), so you can either continue to lament those cards or you can find new lists. Not being tied to a 29pt brick should be seen as a plus, as should the decrease in 'anti-Defender' tech domination.
There is absolutely no decrease in defender counter. Everything is still there because it's good no matter what you are facing... Palob is IMO one of the best counter to defender. He was in the top 8 even if there was no defender to be seen. If anything, the meta now has MORE counter than ever: Blocking scouts, stressbots, Asajj... That's the biggest problem with the nerf. It made Imperial more sensitive to the things that were already dominating.