Now that we have had a few wonderful days of following the games and eventual winner, I think we all understand what cards really made Imperial lists competitive:

pre-nerf Palpatine and X7s.

I'm not calling out any debate on their OP-ness pre-nerf of these cards; I'm just saying: the facts I see in squads here locally (Imps getting beaten way more than they win), at the recent System Opens (where Imperials are almost scarce to the point of being endangered) and at Worlds (look at the squad lists and outcomes) seem to bear this fact out.

...am I nuts?

Nope. That's the situation.

You're absolutely right.
Imperials have gone from untouchable (Fel+Stealth+Autothrusters+Palp) to paper mache.

Defenders were the tops. Now they don't even make Top 16 at Worlds. FFG really screwed up - and I half blame this forum.

Yes. Palpatine and pre-nerf Defenders were not, nor were they ever, the only options the Empire has. It would just seem that, without such guarantees as those, most players prefer to stick to safer (Mindlink, for example) options for tournaments.

I think it's largely unimportant whether or not any of us think those nerfs were or were not justified - FFG are not going to roll them back (if they were going to they'd have done so by now), so you can either continue to lament those cards or you can find new lists. Not being tied to a 29pt brick should be seen as a plus, as should the decrease in 'anti-Defender' tech domination.

1 minute ago, MalusCalibur said:

Yes. Palpatine and pre-nerf Defenders were not, nor were they ever, the only options the Empire has. It would just seem that, without such guarantees as those, most players prefer to stick to safer (Mindlink, for example) options for tournaments.

I think it's largely unimportant whether or not any of us think those nerfs were or were not justified - FFG are not going to roll them back (if they were going to they'd have done so by now), so you can either continue to lament those cards or you can find new lists. Not being tied to a 29pt brick should be seen as a plus, as should the decrease in 'anti-Defender' tech domination.

Yes there are other options, but the data is showing they aren't up to snuff in the current meta.

How much of that is due to players' list choices though? I'm not saying I know; I am actually asking if anyone has the data to build a reasonable answer.

If 30% of players in an event bring 2+ x7s, then one must assume that there are strong players among them that will make the ships sing.

If the folliwing event has only a 5% rate, then you will see their dominance fall off a cliff unless for some reason a big chunk of top players take them.

Netlisting happens.

Wiped out with a single FAQ. Way to go FFG, bang up job there. You'll wipe a faction off the competitive tables entirely, but you STILL can't figure out that you need to increase the cost of Jumpmasters and remove Contracted Scouts' EPT. Just pathetic.

1 minute ago, MalusCalibur said:

Yes. Palpatine and pre-nerf Defenders were not, nor were they ever, the only options the Empire has. It would just seem that, without such guarantees as those, most players prefer to stick to safer (Mindlink, for example) options for tournaments.

I think it's largely unimportant whether or not any of us think those nerfs were or were not justified - FFG are not going to roll them back (if they were going to they'd have done so by now), so you can either continue to lament those cards or you can find new lists. Not being tied to a 29pt brick should be seen as a plus, as should the decrease in 'anti-Defender' tech domination.

If you really believe this, then you haven't looked that the faction stats from worlds.

I believe the community trying to find ways to make them viable.. that's not the issue.

1 minute ago, Johen Dood said:

Wiped out with a single FAQ. Way to go FFG, bang up job there. You'll wipe a faction off the competitive tables entirely, but you STILL can't figure out that you need to increase the cost of Jumpmasters and remove Contracted Scouts' EPT. Just pathetic.

This is pretty spot on.

3 minutes ago, MalusCalibur said:

Yes. Palpatine and pre-nerf Defenders were not, nor were they ever, the only options the Empire has. It would just seem that, without such guarantees as those, most players prefer to stick to safer (Mindlink, for example) options for tournaments.

I think it's largely unimportant whether or not any of us think those nerfs were or were not justified - FFG are not going to roll them back (if they were going to they'd have done so by now), so you can either continue to lament those cards or you can find new lists. Not being tied to a 29pt brick should be seen as a plus, as should the decrease in 'anti-Defender' tech domination.

This is so f#cking arrogant.... Scum got a massive nerf as well, and yet Scum players weren't "scared off" only the imperials...

I tell you what I think. After the nerfs, all players, including Scum and Imperials, went home and started list building, and went and tried them in their local stores, and tourneys. The imperials performed badly, and they didn't take the lists to higher level play. They weren't sticking to "safe" options, I'm sure that as I have, so did most imperial players try to find a workable list. They didn't. End of story. The current meta does not favor imperial playstyle, and only certain (not very imperial-esque) ships can perform OKAY. Not Good, not great, they are okay.

8 minutes ago, Pewpewpew BOOM said:

How much of that is due to players' list choices though? I'm not saying I know; I am actually asking if anyone has the data to build a reasonable answer.

If 30% of players in an event bring 2+ x7s, then one must assume that there are strong players among them that will make the ships sing.

If the folliwing event has only a 5% rate, then you will see their dominance fall off a cliff unless for some reason a big chunk of top players take them.

Netlisting happens.

While an interesting point, it doesn't factor in that Rebels seem to also have a smaller player base than Scum, yet still make it to top 8 and usually beyond.

16 minutes ago, RufusDaMan said:

This is so f#cking arrogant.... Scum got a massive nerf as well, and yet Scum players weren't "scared off" only the imperials...

I tell you what I think. After the nerfs, all players, including Scum and Imperials, went home and started list building, and went and tried them in their local stores, and tourneys. The imperials performed badly, and they didn't take the lists to higher level play. They weren't sticking to "safe" options, I'm sure that as I have, so did most imperial players try to find a workable list. They didn't. End of story. The current meta does not favor imperial playstyle, and only certain (not very imperial-esque) ships can perform OKAY. Not Good, not great, they are okay.

Remarkable that you deride me for being arrogant, then in the very next sentence start presenting your own opinion as irrefutable fact.

I'll tell you what *I* think - I think that some players are just a little too eager to throw around accusations of faction bias, and find it just a bit too easy to give up on a list/ship/upgrade/faction when it's no longer on the cut-throat edge of efficiency.

As anecdotal evidence (for what that is worth), my personal go-to list right now is an Imperial one, and I recently won a tournament with it. Defenders are still great (they just require more finesse) and TIE/SF's are fantastic (both the named ones, in particular), and are likely at the core of any successful Imperial list right now.

In any case, I am mainly refuting the OP's idea that pre-nerf x/7 and Palpatine were the only good things the Empire had, because it's just daft, and speaks to a lack of experience outside those cards.

They're still really good. Rough meta for them though. Kinda like Fel is always amazing even if he happens to be garbage in the last two metas. Empire just doesn't have as much that works in this meta.

2 minutes ago, MalusCalibur said:

Remarkable that you deride me for being arrogant, then in the very next sentence start presenting your own opinion as irrefutable fact.

I'll tell you what *I* think - I think that some players are just a little too eager to throw around accusations of faction bias, and find it just a bit too easy to give up on a list/ship/upgrade/faction when it's no longer on the cut-throat edge of efficiency.

As anecdotal evidence (for what that is worth), my personal go-to list right now is an Imperial one, and I recently won a tournament with it. Defenders are still great (they just require more finesse) and TIE/SF's are fantastic (both the named ones, in particular), and are likely at the core of any successful Imperial list right now.

In any case, I am mainly refuting the OP's idea that pre-nerf x/7 and Palpatine were the only good things the Empire had, because it's just daft, and speaks to a lack of experience outside those cards.

But the tournament data doesn't support that. Are you the only one to try the ships you are running? That can't be true, and I have seen some testing for good Imperial lists. That makes their lack of performance even more telling.

30 minutes ago, RufusDaMan said:

This is so f#cking arrogant.... Scum got a massive nerf as well, and yet Scum players weren't "scared off" only the imperials...

I tell you what I think. After the nerfs, all players, including Scum and Imperials, went home and started list building, and went and tried them in their local stores, and tourneys. The imperials performed badly, and they didn't take the lists to higher level play. They weren't sticking to "safe" options, I'm sure that as I have, so did most imperial players try to find a workable list. They didn't. End of story. The current meta does not favor imperial playstyle, and only certain (not very imperial-esque) ships can perform OKAY. Not Good, not great, they are okay.

Except one major thing : there is no "imperial players" or "scum players" at this level of competition. Some players tend to favor one faction or the other, but in the end, most of them will just choose the best option to win the tournament. Actually, that's f...ing toilet seats. So they play this, because it's less risky in the actual meta than defenders. Period.

That doesn't mean Imps are weak; defenders, palp, phantoms, even Fel are still very good tools. Just not the safest bet for now.

47 minutes ago, Rinzler in a Tie said:

I half blame this forum.

Blame FFG for making the ridiculously OP Jump Master. An ugly model based off of a guy wearing toilet paper on his head, on screen for 5 seconds.

46 minutes ago, Johen Dood said:

Wiped out with a single FAQ. Way to go FFG, bang up job there. You'll wipe a faction off the competitive tables entirely, but you STILL can't figure out that you need to increase the cost of Jumpmasters and remove Contracted Scouts' EPT. Just pathetic.

I think the chances of you calling Alex Davy or Frank Brookes 'pathetic' to their faces if you met them are pretty low.

The only thing pathetic here is a grown man/woman (although I won't ignore the possibility of 13 year old boy) nerd raging from behind the safety of forum anonymity. We all want a game that is as balance as it can be but its certainly not that bad and you never know what they are working on behind the scenes.

I agree with the sentiment that jumpmasters are slightly under-costed, but I met either one of them I'd say "Thanks for the hard work, keep it up".

I remember reading many posts about "The Emperor and Defenders are still good at the competitive level, just wait and see". Well now we see.

That nerf was a huge mistake from FFG, listening too much to the whiners.

I will continue to play with the Empire because I am not really in the competition(Only local store tournament) and I love flying my tie fighters and my tie interceptors too much with my friends.

But w e dont want a version 2.0 but a FAQ that destroys an entire faction to the point of rendering it useless is acceptable ! I don't see the difference between buying again for a version who can bring balance we all want or buy a product and ultimately can't play with it because of a FAQ.

The bashing anti-palpatine, x7 besides I still remember the comments that spoke that these cards will not be strong in the game...

Result the empire no longer have in the competition. Congratulations !

5 minutes ago, asters89 said:

I think the changes of you calling Alex Davy or Frank Brookes 'pathetic' to their faces if you met them are pretty low.

The only thing pathetic here is a grown man/woman (although I won't ignore the possibility of 13 year old boy) nerd raging from behind the safety of forum anonymity. We all want a game that is as balance as it can be but its certainly not that bad and you never know what they are working on behind the scenes.

I agree with the sentiment that jumpmasters are slightly under-costed, but I met either one of them I'd say "Thanks for the hard work, keep it up".

I would call Alex Davy out in this regard to his face any day - HAVE YOU LISTENED TO HIS COMMENTARY ON GAMES?

Either he's not a real dev for X-Wing anymore or he truly doesn't understand the game. My 13 yo brother knows the cards and lists better than he does. I was constantly correcting him yesterday during his commentary. Constantly .

And - is Belgium a language?!

9 minutes ago, asters89 said:

I think the changes of you calling Alex Davy or Frank Brookes 'pathetic' to their faces if you met them are pretty low.

The only thing pathetic here is a grown man/woman (although I won't ignore the possibility of 13 year old boy) nerd raging from behind the safety of forum anonymity. We all want a game that is as balance as it can be but its certainly not that bad and you never know what they are working on behind the scenes.

I agree with the sentiment that jumpmasters are slightly under-costed, but I met either one of them I'd say "Thanks for the hard work, keep it up".

Yes, they have since two 12 months now the ultimate balance fix, it always working behind the scenes, it just never works on the stage so far. Well, or better it works just fantastic, driving players around all ships to encourage us tournament players to buy all those shines to than destroy them and replace by new ones. ;-)

So yeah, I would call it successful design.

just want to note that Imperials showing overall was very low, so it makes sense that only 1 player made the cut based on how few imperial players there were to start with.

I'm not saying Imperials are fine, but the results could just as much be a self-fulfilling prophecy as it could be an indication that Imperials are just bad. People talk about them being bad, therefore few players bring them, making it tough for them to make the cut due to lack of numbers.

Compare that to the Jumpmaster and Mindlink showing, which seems to have composed nearly half of the lists, and it makes sense they would fill top tables.

Players saw the power of scum, and outside of diehard Imperial players, players went in that direction. The issue isn't the Palp and x7 nerf- the issue is the lack of a mindlink and Jumpmaster nerf.

I said it several times already and I suppose I'll say it again: imperials are out of options right now.

Back when I started playing X-wing, empire had 2 main archetypes to choose from:

- jousting (TIE swarms)

- arc dodging - interceptor/vader/phantom with or without palp shuttle

Swarms were killed by power creep. I've seen it for the first time in the finals of the spanish SoS last year. Very well flown swarm faced off against (surprise surprise) Dengar + Tel and Dengar just obliterated TIEs with his revenge shots. Ever since we've had such an increase in potency of attacks, that TIEs just get 1 shotted before they can do anything. They simply lose their critical mass way too early into the match and their firepower is no longer sufficient to punch through the defenses of ships these days.

Interceptors (and Inquisitor) on the other hand were wiped out of the meta by the Sabine crew. With bomber Miranda being as popular as she is right now, taking something like Soontir to a large tournament is like playing a russian roulette. Sooner or later you're gonna lose the match before it has even begun because one bombing run will knock out your main combatant.

Phantoms used to do somewhat better because they stand a better chance of evading the bombs (still not easy though!) but Kylo crew counters them about as hard as Sabine counters interceptors. We had one player with Kylo/Phantom in the top 16 (yay!) but he was lucky not to get paired with something like PS10 Kylo RAC on the way or he'd lose bad.

As a result, for months now imperials were forced to use the only fighters that were sturdy enough not to get blown up by bombs right away and had enough offense/defense to go toe to toe with other ships. That is they were forced to fly defenders, and - once lightweight frame appeared - TIE/sfs (mostly Quickdraw due to his ability to survive by discouraging shooting him in the first place). These used to work well enough to keep them at the top tables, especially when backed by Palp, but it made imperial meta stale and one-dimensional for the entirety of the last season.

And now that both Palp and x7 have been nerfed imperials are just out of options. They can't go back to arc-dodgers because of Sabine. They can no longer outjoust jumpmasters and swarms are no longer competitive. I guess we're gonna wait till TIE Aggressor comes out and we get a mass quadruple imperial TLTs on the tables... What joy!

1 minute ago, Lightrock said:

I said it several times already and I suppose I'll say it again: imperials are out of option right now.

Back when I started playing X-wing, empire had 2 main archetypes to choose from:

- jousting (TIE swarms)

- arc dodging - interceptor/vader/phantom with or without palp shuttle

Swarms were killed by power creep. I've seen it for the first time in the finals of the spanish SoS last year. Very well flown swarm faced off against (surprise surprise) Dengar + Tel and Dengar just obliterated TIEs with his revenge shots. Ever since we've had such an increase in potency of attacks, that TIEs just get 1 shotted before they can do anything. They simply lose their critical mass way too early into the match and their firepower is no longer sufficient to punch through the defenses of ships these days.

Interceptors (and Inquisitor) on the other hand were wiped out of the meta by the Sabine crew. With bomber Miranda being as popular as she is right now, taking something like Soontir to a large tournament is like playing a russian roulette. Sooner or later you're gonna lose the match before it has even begun because one bombing run will knock out your main combatant.

Phantoms used to do somewhat better because they stand a better chance or evading the bombs (still not easy though!) but Kylo crew counters them about as hard as Sabine counters interceptors. We had one player with Kylo/Phantom in the top 16 (yay!) but he was lucky not to get paired with something like PS10 Kylo RAC on the way or he'd lose bad.

As a result, for months now imperials were forced to use the only fighters that were sturdy enough not to get blown up by bombs right away and had enough offense/defense to go toe to toe with other ships. That is they were forced to fly defenders, and - once lightweight frame appeared - TIE/sfs (mostly Quickdraw due to his ability to survive by discouraging shooting him in the first place). These used to work well enough to keep them at the top tables, especially when backed by Palp, but it made imperial meta stale and one-dimensional for the entirety of the last season.

And now that both Palp and x7 have been nerfed imperials are just out of options. They can't go back to arc-dodgers because of Sabine. They can no longer outjoust jumpmasters and swarms are no longer competitive. I guess we're gonna wait till TIE Aggressor comes out and we get a mass quadruple imperial TLTs on the tables... What joy!

Quoting so people might read it twice.

6 minutes ago, Rinzler in a Tie said:

I would call Alex Davy out in this regard to his face any day - HAVE YOU LISTENED TO HIS COMMENTARY ON GAMES?

Either he's not a real dev for X-Wing anymore or he truly doesn't understand the game. My 13 yo brother knows the cards and lists better than he does. I was constantly correcting him yesterday during his commentary. Constantly .

And - is Belgium a language?!

I think if you were to call him pathetic to his face, it says much more about you than it does him.

On the whole the FAQ was positive and well received by the player base. Sure, there's a bit more work to be done - but I'm willing to see how that shakes out. That's my take on it.