5 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:So no list with Mindlink is allowed to do well now without wanting a nerf?
If there's a problem, it's with jmks first.
No need to rope Nick's list in with the other mindlinks with jmks.
I'm not sure why you have arbitrarily decided to draw the line here? A list that is basically paratanni but with port-nerf manaroo swapped out for palob with TLT is ok but it wouldn't be ok if it was a contracted scouts plus 2 points of something.
Just now, asters89 said:I'm not sure why you have arbitrarily decided to draw the line here? A list that is basically paratanni but with port-nerf manaroo swapped out for palob with TLT is ok but it wouldn't be ok if it was a contracted scouts plus 2 points of something.
Precisely. I mean if we've basically just demonstrated that you can switch the JM5K in and our without affecting how well the list performs then... maybe it's not performing because it has a JM5K in?
1 minute ago, Lobokai said:"Turrets use mobile firing arc rules"
Ships with turrets don't have the arcs printed on their bases..... or the mobile arc marker.
I think FFG should release some other amazing EPT's, so there's competition with mindlink. It's really powerful, but it's also really fun. Building your list and planning your activations around the restriction that mindlink imposes makes the squad actually unique.
Mindlink is fine. FFG has nerfed card after card that has been used with the JumpBastard, and the JumpBastard keeps rising to the top.
The JumpBastard is the inductively proven problem. It's what needs to be fixed. It's what always needed to be fixed.
Just now, asters89 said:Ships with turrets don't have the arcs printed on their bases..... or the mobile arc marker.
Sry. I didn't mean all you'd have to do is add a sentence, I meant rules wise it'd be a sentence... so yes, it'd take some product, maybe a small arc marker sold seperately... which is unlikely and that's too bad... that's why I said the other option too, of not modifying dice out of arc (an inferior, but FFG esq solution imo).
3 minutes ago, grandmoffjoe said:Building your list and planning your activations around the restriction that mindlink imposes makes the squad actually unique.
...unique like almost every other Scum list at a tournament?
3 minutes ago, Lobokai said:...unique like almost every other Scum list at a tournament?
Not that kind of unique. Unique as in "different from every other list I play".
A mindlink list doesn't fly like any other list. The restrictions on activation order and the fact that basically only 1 ship can Kturn mean it doesn't fly like any list built without it.
24 minutes ago, Thormind said:On a side note, IMO the Caster is just as OP as the Jumpmaster, especially Asajj. Super tanky+control+good offense+amazing dial for a very low cost. That's too much.
I'm not sure any large base ship should have a green hard.
What if you removed "if it does not already have one." from the stress sharing side of mindlink? Kinda situational nerf.
Jumpmasters are fine. Manaroo and Scouts rock only because of Mindlink. Dengar is a glass cannon.
Turrets are fine IMO. Shadow Caster would be broken with normal turret.
I started using Mindlink as soon as it was released as to me it was the most interesting card in the wave. I did well at local tournaments with variations of palob/Guri/Manaroo/Kavil but never got a full win. Plenty of top 4's with a 5-1/4-1 record but never a full win. Mindlink made these ships that were forgotten and gathering dust good. Not super OP good but good nevertheless. What really changed things was the Fang and Shadow Caster. That's when Mindlink had really good options instead of good options. That said; I'd built a Mindlink tripple scout list whilst everyone was still on the deadeye builds. Never bothered playing it but it seems those are still strong options. Still; Mindlink wasn't a problem until wave 10 came along, it's the combination of Mindlink on the platforms now available that make it so good.
I honestly don't think it's "too good" and needs a nerf but I do think it's somewhat evident of the power creep ramping up a bit. For me I loved the fact that scum had a really fluffy interesting card that really helped get some older ships back out. Stamping on it in any way would make me sad at the possibilities lost. IMHO; if there was less of a tangible difference between a "good" ship and a "bad" ship mindlink would be exactly that.
20 minutes ago, Jarval said:So no list with JumpMasters is allowed to do well without wanting a nerf? That Dengar/Tel winning list is not a list anyone would have predicted being a winning proposition before Worlds, and isn't a problem that needs nerfing IMO.
Equally, I don't think that Mindlink is necessarily a fundamentally problematic card, but the JumpMaster clearly isn't the only thing making it a good choice.
Off course not, its a great EPT, but nerf worthy? I am not so sure. But eventually it will probably be nerfed as a cheap, easy solution to change the scum meta.
37 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:
- Did Scum lists with Jumpmasters and Minlink do well? Yes.
- Did Scum lists with Jumpmasters and without Mindlink do well? Yes.
- Did Scum lists without Jumpmasters but with Mindlink do well? Yes.
Yes, but it was only the middle option that won, directly beating the top option to get there.
You'd also need mobile firing arc cardboard to put on ship bases, for a start. The action that allows you to move your turrets would need to be added to ship cards (or included in the turret rules or turret upgrade cards as "Your ship gains the <Rotate Arc> action"). That's the bare minimum that I can think of.
26 minutes ago, Lobokai said:"Turrets use mobile firing arc rules"
Rey with a mobile firing arc? Yes please!
9 minutes ago, DekoPuma said:Rey with a mobile firing arc? Yes please!
IF she became OP, errata her rule to "front arc". Not extensive
19 minutes ago, Smutpedler said:I started using Mindlink as soon as it was released as to me it was the most interesting card in the wave. I did well at local tournaments with variations of palob/Guri/Manaroo/Kavil but never got a full win. Plenty of top 4's with a 5-1/4-1 record but never a full win. Mindlink made these ships that were forgotten and gathering dust good. Not super OP good but good nevertheless. What really changed things was the Fang and Shadow Caster. That's when Mindlink had really good options instead of good options. That said; I'd built a Mindlink tripple scout list whilst everyone was still on the deadeye builds. Never bothered playing it but it seems those are still strong options. Still; Mindlink wasn't a problem until wave 10 came along, it's the combination of Mindlink on the platforms now available that make it so good.
I honestly don't think it's "too good" and needs a nerf but I do think it's somewhat evident of the power creep ramping up a bit. For me I loved the fact that scum had a really fluffy interesting card that really helped get some older ships back out. Stamping on it in any way would make me sad at the possibilities lost. IMHO; if there was less of a tangible difference between a "good" ship and a "bad" ship mindlink would be exactly that.
If someone were to ask me what is the one thing you really hate about this game... Dial creep. That's what's made Attanni lists so **** powerful.
Just now, Lobokai said:IF she became OP, errata her rule to "front arc". Not extensive
Most likely both she and Dengar would be errataed to say "front arc" from the git go.
Here's my carefully constructed contribution to the debate
It's called Jumpmaster for a reason, ya know
Edited by sozinMindlink might get range restriction like Manaroo did, but I highly doubt that they will change the cost. And in the end mindlink didn't won world's either. Being popular doesn't always make the card overpowered, now what happens in X-Wing has been happening always with some squadrons, bunch of copycats just doing the squad because they were not smart/clever enough to do something original. I hate the card hunt after too many people exploit it!! It is excellent card but not overpowered!
Why you think that world champion beat the mindlink lists over and over again?! Because he was good! Same happened with Nand also and it wasn't JM5K's, it was excellent tactics and precise playing.
35 minutes ago, Arthur_McGuire said:What if you removed "if it does not already have one." from the stress sharing side of mindlink? Kinda situational nerf.
So...you just indefinitely pile stress tokens onto each ship? Because the mindlinks would trigger each other, therefore the stress tokens keep stacking up
1 hour ago, Jarval said:It's worth noting that the Mindlink list that made the top 4 at Worlds didn't include a JumpMaster...
- Fenn + ML + AT + title
- Asajj + ML + Latts
- Palob + ML + TLT
and
1 hour ago, Stay On The Leader said:
- Did Scum lists with Jumpmasters and Minlink do well? Yes.
- Did Scum lists with Jumpmasters and without Mindlink do well? Yes.
- Did Scum lists without Jumpmasters but with Mindlink do well? Yes.
Sure, but what percentage of lists overall does "scum with mindlink and no jumpmaster" represent?
How can you tell if this legit made it into the top 4 or if it's broken?
Adjusting two variables at once is a bad idea. How can you tell the individual effect of a change, if there's 2 differences?
We agree the JM5K is broken so we need to sort that out, and then after that, we can look at whether mindlink is still broken, or if it's OK.
Edited by Moppy10 minutes ago, Zazaa said:Mindlink might get range restriction like Manaroo did, but I highly doubt that they will change the cost. And in the end mindlink didn't won world's either. Being popular doesn't always make the card overpowered, now what happens in X-Wing has been happening always with some squadrons, bunch of copycats just doing the squad because they were not smart/clever enough to do something original. I hate the card hunt after too many people exploit it!! It is excellent card but not overpowered!
Why you think that world champion beat the mindlink lists over and over again?! Because he was good! Same happened with Nand also and it wasn't JM5K's, it was excellent tactics and precise playing.
It's not about the final table, but more about the Top16 composition, not only here, but on other large tournaments as well.
1 hour ago, Thormind said:If it was OP for defenders to get a free evade no matter what, why is it not the same for a squad capable of getting free focus as long as just 1 ship is able to take an action? On ships that have both an evade and a focus action, which on do you use the most?
To be fair, the cost of the Defender being able to do that was actually -2 points. Where as the Mindlink is 1 point. So that is a three point swing. Assuming three ships in each list, you are looking at -6 vs 3.
Isn't the real pain point for jumps that they basically all carry double torpedoes? Without the alpha they really aren't as bad, even with mindlink. 2 dice primaries don't really break the game even on maneuverable large based turrets but the 2 accurate 4 dice alphas punish the aces who typically could counter a jump without munitions.