So... The pitchforks are out as our beloved community shows its mob mentaility!

Many believe that the guilty party should have been expelled from the Worlds tournament for his crime of blatantly changing his dial on film. That´ s fair enough, if you equate it to a doping level of cheating. In pro sports, doping is an automatic (lengthy) expulsion, but there exist many other levels of possible sanctions for infractions that are for cheating, but not doping. Such as yellow cards, 10yd advance, sin bins, time penalties, penalty points etc...

So my question for you all is: What, for you, is a doping level offence that merits expulsion from a tournament and a likely lengthy ban from at least that location? As opposed to a lower level "slap on the wrist" game loss...

In my own opinion, I´ d put:

1. Bringing known crooked dice.

2. Fixing the damage deck

3. Attempting to change your list on the fly between rounds. (although this should be impossible at Worlds, smaller events won´ t always provide opponents´ lists)

So, what gets your blood boiling to the point that you want to hang ´ em up high? Thrashing this out will give the FFG guys an insight into this community´ s thoughts on the matter...

Please Note: I do not include red cards as a potential means of expulsion as they are limited to team sports. If you want to get expelled from a tennis tournament, doping is the way to go....

I agree with all 3 of those being DQed. As for the nitwit who changed his dial, I think a DQ would also be appropriate. We have no idea if he cheated in the games before this but we can assume so with how blatantly he did it. Imagine if he won Worlds with that hanging over his head. No loss, straight DQ.

Q. What does a bowler get for tampering with the ball in Cricket? (This is a deliberate, consciencious act of cheating that alters the game state and adversely affects the batsman. )

A. A five run award to the batting team. No one is removed from the field.

Edit: I add this as it seems comparable to the Guilty Party´ s offence here. It is an ingame action affecting the game state, as opposed to a permanent self buff, which is the only thing that gets an automatic tournie expulsion and ban in pro sport. In this thread I suppose I am debating sbout what should be the equivalent to the pro sport rules in a nonpro board game ? Maybe it´ s apples and oranges, maybe not. But what is that doping level here?

Well cheating is bad but I don't know if doping is the correct word. I guess if you wanted to clarify your question I think you mean what would be considered malicious?

Starting the 50th forum thread about cheating in 36 hours. Lifetime ban. Possible execution.

Comparing x-wing rules violations to sports is pretty hard. In say hockey or whatever, things you get 2 mins for is just part of the game. Nothing like that really exist in x-wing.

Anthing that qaulifies as an intentional cheat should result in a DQ imo, including changing the dial, sneaking a peak at opponents dial, loaded dice ofc, pre-meassuring a movement while your opponent is otherwise occupied, returning shield tokens (looking at you r2d2) and so forth.

The more problematic thing is the rules people just constantly get wrong. Like, meassuring ranges out of turn, using your hands to visualize. That should politely be adrssed first time, second time whatever is appropriate, a sricter warning, lose action/game or something else.

Disqualification from the tournament, and victories handed to all opponents as retroactively as possible. Ditto a stacked deck, because let's be fair, a deck /could/ be accidental.

Changing ones list between rounds results in automatic, retroactive loss for every game that they can't prove they used their original list (note the wording there), then let them carry on with a warning. DQ if they try it again.

Provably loaded dice would be lifetime ban.

Why the variance? Because cheating at a damage deck /could/ be an honest mistake from sloppy play, while the temptation to fiddle a dial is obviously dishonest, but it's very spur-of-the-moment: We want people to go away and Learn Their Lesson, but I'm happy for them to try again once they've gone sober. Meanwhile, changing lists sounds more like you need to check with the person on "Do you actually understand how tournaments work", because that might technically be cheating but it's also so brazen and blatant that it seems unlikely to get very far - it's trivial for a TO to check, even mid-game, after all. If punishment must be meted out, it can be easily escalated for repeat offense, so it doesn't bother me quite as much. And provably loaded dice get the harshest penalty immediately, because there's the chance for cheating it the moment... and then there's careful, deliberate, premedidated cheating. Zero tolerance on the latter.

5 hours ago, Larky Bobble said:

So my question for you all is: What, for you, is a doping level offence that merits expulsion from a tournament and a likely lengthy ban from at least that location? As opposed to a lower level "slap on the wrist" game loss...

In my own opinion, I´ d put:

1. Bringing known crooked dice.

2. Fixing the damage deck

3. Attempting to change your list on the fly between rounds. (although this should be impossible at Worlds, smaller events won´ t always provide opponents´ lists)

I hadn't considered changing you list between rounds but I do think that having an illegal list is grounds for a 1st-round loss (allowing removal components to bring it down to legal) although in later rounds it could merit dismissal.

"Fixing the damage deck" I'd take to include any attempt to altering the damage deck to produce non-random results. Some form of stacking the deck is the most obvious form but marking cards somehow and then drawing the "weak" cards when you know you'll be seeing it face-up is nearly as bad. If you consider the view that Kylo is powerful that just goes to show how abusive stacking the deck would be. Some consideration can be made if a deck happens to become a card heavy/light as the result of some mixup during the endgame but this should be traced back and "fixed" if at all possible.

4. I'd also have to add dial manipulation/changing to the list. What a dial gets set it is SECRET information that is supposed to be fixed before Activations start to happen. If that goes and starts changing after activations begin how is an opponent supposed to know they are being cheated? Part of the reason that post movement actions are so strong is because they can be made down the line but if dial manipulation happens who really needs boost anymore? I'll note that accidentally revealing that secret information doesn't come close to rising to the same seriousness that altering a previously set dial does.

Here's the real question I've been stuck on for a while. And I hate saying it "out loud" but not saying it bothers me too.

FFG dice aren't balanced. They just aren't. It is technically not cheating for someone to buy 100 packs of dice, float them all and keep only the ones that roll favorably. This will give them an insane advantage in game.

There is a rule where players can request to use another players dice in a game, but 99% of opponents won't, especially the first time they play against someone and don't know how hot their dice will be or if their dice have been hot in every game. It feels like cheating but is not against the rules and is impossible to make any ruling to enforce unless they started making new dice that looked different and were actually balanced and made people use those. I don't like it.

But how different is it from throwing away your green dice that you feel always crap out on you and buying new ones? I really don't know how to feel about unbalanced dice being a part of this game.

46 minutes ago, emperorscanaries said:

Here's the real question I've been stuck on for a while. And I hate saying it "out loud" but not saying it bothers me too.

FFG dice aren't balanced. They just aren't. It is technically not cheating for someone to buy 100 packs of dice, float them all and keep only the ones that roll favorably. This will give them an insane advantage in game.

There is a rule where players can request to use another players dice in a game, but 99% of opponents won't, especially the first time they play against someone and don't know how hot their dice will be or if their dice have been hot in every game. It feels like cheating but is not against the rules and is impossible to make any ruling to enforce unless they started making new dice that looked different and were actually balanced and made people use those. I don't like it.

But how different is it from throwing away your green dice that you feel always crap out on you and buying new ones? I really don't know how to feel about unbalanced dice being a part of this game.

This is why official tournament rules are that both players use the same set of dice.

8 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

This is why official tournament rules are that both players use the same set of dice.

No it isn't. The marshal may require that, and any player can request that both use the same set of dice. But that is not the default.

19 minutes ago, VanorDM said:

No it isn't. The marshal may require that, and any player can request that both use the same set of dice. But that is not the default.

Pretty sure it's the default at top level. It's clearly not adhered to though.

1 hour ago, Stay On The Leader said:

Pretty sure it's the default at top level. It's clearly not adhered to though.

The rules are quite clear that a player can request that both people use the same templates and/or dice. They also say the Marshal can require that people share the same set of dice.

The rules are also quite clear that it's optional.

Quote

Sharing Components

Before or during a tournament round, any player may request that a single range ruler, set of maneuver templates, and/or set of dice be shared for the duration of the round. Any decisions are subject to review by a marshal or a judge.

The marshal may mandate that players must share a single range ruler, set of maneuver templates, and/or set of dice during a round.

There is nothing in the most current version of the tournament rules that say a Premier level is treated differently in terms of the above rule.

48 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

Pretty sure it's the default at top level. It's clearly not adhered to though.

It's not.

So, lemme see if I can pull together all of the potential ways people can cheat at this game:

List related "Cheating"

1) Submit an illegal list (>100pts, illegal upgrades, cross faction pilots, etc)

2) Change a list in the middle of the tourney (most likely small tweaks (Assault vs. Homing), but could be full list change)

3) Play a legal list but not the list you submitted (forgot to include Autothrusters on your upgrade sheet, but *duh* of course it's on Fel)

4) Proxying a card

Dice related Cheating

5) Intentionally rolling more dice hoping your opponent doesn't notice

6) Gaming the "if you roll too many dice, reroll all dice" by slow rolling an additional die, only if the results of the real roll are bad

7) Sleight of hand changing a die result

8) Using tampered dice

9) Arranging dice in hand and not "rolling" them properly (to ensure more repeatable result)

Maneuver related Cheating

10) Using the wrong dial for a ship (hoping the opponent doesn't realize a T-65 can't do a Troll)

11) Assigning the wrong dial to a ship (Assign a T-65 dial to your T-70 and the T-70 to a T-65. Potentially reveal them as mixed on purpose because the 2 straight is the better option)

12) Forgetting to assign a dial

13) Looking at your opponent's dial (either by mistake or on purpose)

14) Activating in the wrong order

15) Changing your dial

16) Changing your opponent's dial

Action related Cheating

17) Performing an action you cannot

18) Performing a barrel roll on a same PS ship after another one has activated (Swarms come to mind)

19) Measuring for lock and not taking it

20) Measuring for lock on a ship TOTALLY out of range just to "estimate" range onto another ship*

21) Playing a list containing Attanni Mindlink (jklol - had to throw something in for the trolls)

22) Specific (for the moment) to Jake regarding order of actions (Boost -> F and failing the barrel roll is different than F (boost off of it) -> E/TL), but I suppose PTL/EI could fall in here

Combat related Cheating

23) Activating numerous ships at once and shooting with all of them

24) Skipping a ship and then going back to it

25) Intentionally lie about range

General Gameplay Cheating

26) Ignoring effects of crits

27) Nudging intentionally in your favor

28) Offering your opponent some laxative-laced cookies

29) Playing without the ships on the bases

30) Playing with an altered damaged deck

31) Playing with a missing card from the damage deck

*Technically not illegal, but could/should fall under poor sportsmanship

I'm sure I missed some, but it seems like a relatively complete list. My concern with a lot of these having any serious consequences, is the lack of accountability. 15 and 27 are probably the biggest no nos that everyone gets PO'd about, except there's no way to enforce any rules about it. It's definitely a He-Said/She-Said scenario 99% of the time. Sure, most places have a stream table these days, and there are typically a few judges floating around, but until there's a dedicated judge at every table, you cannot reliably enforce this. And creating a rule that says "If a player is caught altering a dial, he is disqualified from the event" sounds great in principle, but just pisses people off when the TO doesn't DQ the guy that they saw (but the TO didn't) altering his dial.

That said, there are some things that aren't he-said/she-said. Playing with an altered damage deck would be an example of that. It's easily proven. But where do you draw the line that it's altered versus the guy lost a card? I know I personally check my deck between each round to count 33 cards, but I got to the 6th round at a regional and only had 32... The missing card never showed up (and I use weird sleeves so no one else can steal one by mistake). I went to the TO and got a new damage card for the last round and the cut, but I couldn't prove that I didn't play with a 32 card deck, or that it was just the last game, etc. I honestly lost a card - I don't want to be treated the same way as a guy that stacks his deck with old deck injured pilot crits on his TIE swarm.

For premier events, I would like to see a specific list of punishments released from FFG for specific infractions, even if most are not enforceable. There's a bunch you could do about lists - #2 should probably be DQ since it's clearly intentional. If you're concerned with it being an innocent mistake, allow the player to keep playing the game, but his final standings don't count. If it's a newbie, he'll likely not be doing well anyways, and as a TO, you can give him some participation prize from an OP kit or something and he'll still be happy. Anyone serious should know those are the rules (as required in premier events). #1 should theoretically never happen, but I've seen it. Assign losses to the player for all previous rounds (and current if it's in progress), but allow him to make a sublist out of the stuff he listed to make it legal. Pretty much same thing for #3 - you gotta play the list you submitted, but it would be extremely difficult for an opponent to realize the list you're playing is not the list you submitted. Assign losses for previous rounds, and allow him to continue with the list submitted.

Dice cheating is again very difficult to enforce. I don't see how any of these could be enforced. But if the game is being watched/recorded, you could establish punishments. #5, 6 & 9 should be a one time warning, and then an auto-loss. #7 should be DQ. #8 I don't know how you determine this, but if you can, auto DQ.

I'm not going to go through all of them, but again, the main concern is anything worth losing a game / being disqualified is going to be next to impossible to enforce.

2 hours ago, Stay On The Leader said:

Pretty sure it's the default at top level. It's clearly not adhered to though.

At Worlds during a second day of swiss both players were required to use the same set of dice with the roll at the beginning of the game to select whose dice were going to be used.

Disintegrations encouraged.

Doping?

Printing custom dials with EXTRA maneuvers the ship doesn't have. That's the closest equivalent I can imagine.

On 7/5/2017 at 6:30 PM, TasteTheRainbow said:

Starting the 50th forum thread about cheating in 36 hours. Lifetime ban. Possible execution.

Honestly, I was trying to define what is crossing the line using the closest possible paridigm, not just exercise my ego. Spare me, please, M´ lud!

You want doping level infractions? Take ritalin before tournaments or one of the many other classical student drugs for better concentration levels. What`? Did you assume people would not dope for real in X-Wing?