So over in the Xwing forum there's been quite a stir about some bloke cheating at Worlds live on twitch.

https://clips.twitch.tv/SparklyFantasticCrowBrainSlug

bloke on the left changes his dial with his thumb.

Now I'm not posting to slam this fella, he's been caught and punished though some feel the punishment wasn't severe enough.

My question to the community is, if this happened against you what do you feel is an adequate punishment for the player?

I think being excluded from the rest of the tournament and awarding a max point win to the cheated player would be appropriate.

Whats your thoughts?

Game loss.

More than enough.

Well I would say giving the player that cheated an automatic loss regardless of game outcome would be a good start. Then give him the option to come clean infront of all and bow out, or be banned from all future events. I don't see the purpose of rewarding the other player for the cheater's stupid decision either.

To me, this game regardless of competition is meant to be a fun thing. However, just like anything that gets too serious, there is always a few who let it go beyond fun.

****... Bumping is one thing but that guy...

33 minutes ago, Wes Janson said:

To me, this game regardless of competition is meant to be a fun thing. However, just like anything that gets too serious, there is always a few who let it go beyond fun.

Wise words, I agree the game is about having fun. That's certainly my primary goal have fun and enjoy above all else.

Depends on the level of cheating , changing a dial should be a game loss since in Armada at least the advantage provided is not that big, but there also should be some kind of record so the judge knows that they could keep an eye on particular people who cheated before. Also if the same person is caught doing it again it should be a tournament disqualification.

Perma ban from competitive event should only be used in extreme cases when someone does it more than twice.

Or you buy skilled first officer and you can cheat legally ^^.

pretty sure tournament document says all misconduct which would probably include cheating is disqualification for the event. seems satisfactory to me

23 minutes ago, thorrk said:

Depends on the level of cheating , changing a dial should be a game loss since in Armada at least the advantage provided is not that big, but there also should be some kind of record so the judge knows that they could keep an eye on particular people who cheated before. Also if the same person is caught doing it again it should be a tournament disqualification.

Perma ban from competitive event should only be used in extreme cases when someone does it more than twice.

Or you buy skilled first officer and you can cheat legally ^^.

I feel uncomfortable putting cheating into bands tbh. Cheating is cheating at the end of the day, but I see your point. ?

1 hour ago, Ma22a said:

My question to the community is, if this happened against you what do you feel is an adequate punishment for the player?

Quote

I feel uncomfortable putting cheating into bands tbh. Cheating is cheating at the end of the day, but I see your point. ?

Well this is more or less how it works in MTG and it works.

1 hour ago, ovinomanc3r said:

Thread is now closed by order of Ovinomanc3r lol

My take has been echoed here:

It's a game. If you need to cheat to win, whatever. If it's habitual, and you get caught, people are going to get wise to your BS.

That guy at X Wing worlds... He's gonna have to live with that for a long time. And I'm sure the people he plays with won't let him forget.

Is it just me or was that guy really obvious about his cheating. I mean he was not very subtle at all.

Anyway I say game loss minimum. Disqualified max. He should be noted and if he is found to be cheating again banned. If he does it a second time chances are he won't stop because he obviously doesn't care about the consequences.

The Disappointing thing about this (to me) is that a Game loss was awarded. But it was his next game. Not the game he Cheated in. Which he won .

The Cheating Player progressed into the end and "Day 2" of competition with a 5-2 Record last night.

The Cheated Player Went home with a 3-4 record... When a 4-3 Record with the Boost from his Match being Forfeited in his favour? Would have gotten him over the line to play in the final day as well .

It just seems sad to see the Cheater has prospered more-so than the Cheated in this case...

Unfortunately, as a TO, the rules are not "Clear" in the way that none of the actual charges / penalties are listed, only hinted at and suggested... So in the end, respect the TO . Their decision is their decision. I always hope that I, personally, am Fair and Balanced and consider not only current consequences, but future consequences of the situation in my calls - but we're all mortal. Asking us to be more than that is setting us up to fail.

If you need to win that badly, go home, you've forgotten we're all here to have fun first. I don't care what level the competition is.

I say disqualification. Period.

I'm concerned that the time and place this occurred in meant that the opposing player wasn't just cheated out of a win, he was very directly cheated out of at least a full day of lodging and transportation to keep him there.

I'm going to NoVa, but this makes me genuinely concerned about the experience if this is how FFG "punishes" cheaters.

Game loss and immediate ejection from the event. Player can return to events in the future, but if he's caught cheating again, banned for life.

Anyone who cheats at plastic spaceships has forgotten the face of his father.

I would say the cheater should have an instant ban from that tourneyment, second offences should have a multi tourney ban ( say 6-12 months), three times and you get a decade (You can't give lifetime bans in the EU, it's against human rights laws).

The big problem is what you do for the other player, xwing is easy as its win or loss.....Armada is harder, just giving a ten piont win completely unbalances the tourneyment for everyone else. The TO almost needs to make a judgement on how the cheating impacted and what was the likely outcome. If the other player was heading for a good win anyway and the cheating may have deprived him of a number of points give him the 10 points, if it was clear he was beaten anyway and the cheater was trying to get more points for a better win give the other guy an only just won ( 6 points).

1 hour ago, Drasnighta said:

The Disappointing thing about this (to me) is that a Game loss was awarded. But it was his next game. Not the game he Cheated in. Which he won .

The Cheating Player progressed into the end and "Day 2" of competition with a 5-2 Record last night.

The Cheated Player Went home with a 3-4 record... When a 4-3 Record with the Boost from his Match being Forfeited in his favour? Would have gotten him over the line to play in the final day as well .

It just seems sad to see the Cheater has prospered more-so than the Cheated in this case...

Unfortunately, as a TO, the rules are not "Clear" in the way that none of the actual charges / penalties are listed, only hinted at and suggested... So in the end, respect the TO . Their decision is their decision. I always hope that I, personally, am Fair and Balanced and consider not only current consequences, but future consequences of the situation in my calls - but we're all mortal. Asking us to be more than that is setting us up to fail.

Yes definitely a sour note that the cheater progressed and the cheated party did not. That would have been a real kick in the nuts!

There was a participant from the bay area whose significant other didn't make the cut because of this guy, and she didn't cheat.

Immediate ejection from the tournament is what I would have done. I've never had to enforce that at local tournaments because I don't have video cameras, but if that was caught on tape, yeah, immediate ejection if there's verifiable video evidence. All it's doing is allowing that player to cause more ill-will within the community and doubt to FFG in regard of fair judging.

25 minutes ago, Norsehound said:

There was a participant from the bay area whose significant other didn't make the cut because of this guy, and she didn't cheat.

Immediate ejection from the tournament is what I would have done. I've never had to enforce that at local tournaments because I don't have video cameras, but if that was caught on tape, yeah, immediate ejection if there's verifiable video evidence. All it's doing is allowing that player to cause more ill-will within the community and doubt to FFG in regard of fair judging.

I couldn't agree more, he's caught on video red handed. He should have been ejected but wasn't. I think that could potentially set a dangerous precedent.

i know it's not a life or death thing it's plastic spaceships after all.

I just really feel for the lad how didn't cheat but essentially got punished too.

A New response from FFG on the issue

(Basically, they're doing their best, and they're continuing to discuss things with both parties - in private )

And above all else - Agree or Disagree with the Decision - it is the TO's decision to make .

To Whit:

Hello everyone!

There has been a lot of discussion about this incident, and we thank you all for your passion and enthusiasm.

Issues like this are never easy, nor are they as simple as they appear from afar. In this particular case, our judges and TO’s investigated the matter and came to a conclusion. After speaking with both players involved, they came to a determination and issued a penalty. I understand that many members of this community might disagree with their assessment, and that’s fine. This is all very subjective.

Situations like this take time to resolve. When something like this occurs, we are not able to rush to quick judgment. That’s a luxury the Internet has that we do not. We have an obligation to do our due diligence, collect all the facts, and then issue a verdict.

Unfortunately, the tournament does not stop moving forward while we’re investigating. Therefore, after the decision was made, the only choice was to issue a penalty to Player 1 on a future match. After the meal break, this was then communicated to Player 2 in the middle of his next pairing. Regretfully, this interrupted Player 2’s match in a negative way. The reality is, there are hundreds of players here playing dozens of matches, and in that chaos, our lines of communication were not efficient enough. As a result, Player 2's experience yesterday was not what we strive for.

We have been, and continue to be, in contact with both players. Please know that our first priority is to run a fair tournament, and we work very hard at that. Our second priority is that everyone has a positive experience at Worlds. We stand by our decision regarding Player 1. As for Player 2, we are working with him to make sure his experience at Worlds is not hampered by this.

However, as a matter of policy, those discussions between FFG and our players are private. We do not disclose our discussions with individual players to the community at large. Rest assured that we are taking steps to find the most equitable solution we can for the impact this had on Player 2's experience.

Thank you for your interest and discussion on this matter. From our end, we consider the issue closed and we look forward to seeing the X-Wing World Championships tonight.

Please remember that we have a zero tolerance policy for online harassment, doxxing, and bullying of any of our community members.

Thank you again. Enjoy the final day of Worlds!

Obvious cheating not resulting in an immediate DQ for the party is a terrible way to enforce good sportsmanship. I've seen it in other games and the cheaters became regular offenders, to the point they would insult other players who considered calling a judge/TO over.

1 hour ago, Drasnighta said:

A New response from FFG on the issue

(Basically, they're doing their best, and they're continuing to discuss things with both parties - in private )

And above all else - Agree or Disagree with the Decision - it is the TO's decision to make .

To Whit:

Hello everyone!

There has been a lot of discussion about this incident, and we thank you all for your passion and enthusiasm.

Issues like this are never easy, nor are they as simple as they appear from afar. In this particular case, our judges and TO’s investigated the matter and came to a conclusion. After speaking with both players involved, they came to a determination and issued a penalty. I understand that many members of this community might disagree with their assessment, and that’s fine. This is all very subjective.

Situations like this take time to resolve. When something like this occurs, we are not able to rush to quick judgment. That’s a luxury the Internet has that we do not. We have an obligation to do our due diligence, collect all the facts, and then issue a verdict.

Unfortunately, the tournament does not stop moving forward while we’re investigating. Therefore, after the decision was made, the only choice was to issue a penalty to Player 1 on a future match. After the meal break, this was then communicated to Player 2 in the middle of his next pairing. Regretfully, this interrupted Player 2’s match in a negative way. The reality is, there are hundreds of players here playing dozens of matches, and in that chaos, our lines of communication were not efficient enough. As a result, Player 2's experience yesterday was not what we strive for.

We have been, and continue to be, in contact with both players. Please know that our first priority is to run a fair tournament, and we work very hard at that. Our second priority is that everyone has a positive experience at Worlds. We stand by our decision regarding Player 1. As for Player 2, we are working with him to make sure his experience at Worlds is not hampered by this.

However, as a matter of policy, those discussions between FFG and our players are private. We do not disclose our discussions with individual players to the community at large. Rest assured that we are taking steps to find the most equitable solution we can for the impact this had on Player 2's experience.

Thank you for your interest and discussion on this matter. From our end, we consider the issue closed and we look forward to seeing the X-Wing World Championships tonight.

Please remember that we have a zero tolerance policy for online harassment, doxxing, and bullying of any of our community members.

Thank you again. Enjoy the final day of Worlds!

Excellent response.

Unless you plan at attending a major tournament at the cost of hundreds of dollars in the near future like I do.

I am now carefully considering if I should get a refund on my purchases.

6 minutes ago, thecactusman17 said:

Excellent response.

Unless you plan at attending a major tournament at the cost of hundreds of dollars in the near future like I do.

I am now carefully considering if I should get a refund on my purchases.

As part of your considerations (as you are considering ) - are the events you are looking at attending specifically FFG-Run events?