1 minute ago, WWHSD said:

With Ardus in your army the 2x1 worms can bring Wind Rune. That 0-3 shift followed by a reform followed by March 3 makes the worms an awesome flanking unit.

I just hope that Waiqar get a version of necromancer with rune control the same way that Daqan are getting Greyhaven Channler. With some additional rune control this strategy could become pretty consistent.

5 minutes ago, Willange said:

I just hope that Waiqar get a version of necromancer with rune control the same way that Daqan are getting Greyhaven Channler. With some additional rune control this strategy could become pretty consistent.

I think it's probably a safe bet that they will. We already know that elves will be getting something so manipulating runes doesn't look like it's going to be a human only kind of thing.

13 hours ago, druchii7 said:

The problem is that there are some excellent ways to get rid of blight. Specially anoying the war crier. A smart daqan player can engage with almost no blight on his troops: preventing cavalry from getting blighted by moving 4 units (that's initiative 7, so the carrion lancer and archers will be outside range) or making move + regroup first turn with spearmen almost immunize against blight. Carrion lancers find it hard to use their skill on flanks and archers are quite dice dependant and might not always get a surge on dice (it is likely but not sure).

Carrion lancers would be a lot more powerful if their skill acction were in the second dial (move and then blight), because a smart daqan player won't be enter their action range in turn 1 and will charge in turn 2. They also have the chance to do a 6 units movement to engage carrion lancers or archers without giving them a chance to blight (they don't attack, but don't get attacked either).

Daqan have it very easy to prevent waiqar from using their synergies and therefore having a serious advantage. Of course not always, they'll have to play carefully.

Of course things will change, as far as the combat ingenuity is released. That will grant a blight and we will be able to place even 3 or 4 in a single row, which will not be the nemesis of daqan (as far as regroup elliminates all banes).

The good new is that many troops are very synergy promising, For example, every time we recieve a new unit with surge skills or new generic or waiqar upgrade cards with surge skills, Ardus may recieve it. Not only Ardus, but also reanimates with him as a champion.

I don't disagree that Waiqar synergies can be disrupted, but just like getting blight on in the first place is complicated, mitigating it is also easier said than done.

So far, I've played Waiqar pretty defensively which means rally actions with defense modifiers which means I have the inspiration to soak up reflected blight.

Also, not every unit can take a Warcrier, or would want to. And if that unit is burning special actions instead of defending, charging, or adding surges, I'm OK with that.

20 minutes ago, WWHSD said:

With Ardus in your army the 2x1 worms can bring Wind Rune. That 0-3 shift followed by a reform followed by March 3 makes the worms an awesome flanking unit.

Awesome idea!!!

Just now, Elliphino said:

I don't disagree that Waiqar synergies can be disrupted, but just like getting blight on in the first place is complicated, mitigating it is also easier said than done.

So far, I've played Waiqar pretty defensively which means rally actions with defense modifiers which means I have the inspiration to soak up reflected blight.

Also, not every unit can take a Warcrier, or would want to. And if that unit is burning special actions instead of defending, charging, or adding surges, I'm OK with that.

What I claim is that they can, if play carefully, minimize the damage.

I've too often had this feeling: "ok, I managed to keep my archers save, I managed to charge or to prevent problematic charges, despite being waiqar (not so maneuvrable) I dominated the movements"... and still loosing. If you cannot trigger the synergies, generally speaking, to generate enough blight, you'll probably loose even if you get a certain movement superiority.

That's why we desperatelly need expansions, specifically combat ingenuity.

7 hours ago, BigKahuna said:

*Huge wall of well thought out tactics and convincing arguments*

Thats my humble opinion.

But really, I've been running 2 single lancers since the start, and reading that... you have me convinced. I'm going to have to give it a try and see if the damage makes up for the slightly less blight. I like your thoughts on it.

1 hour ago, TallTonyB said:

But really, I've been running 2 single lancers since the start, and reading that... you have me convinced. I'm going to have to give it a try and see if the damage makes up for the slightly less blight. I like your thoughts on it.

No kidding. If I could like @BigKahuna's post more than once, I would. That was immensely insightful, and I look forward to more in-depth tactical and army-building discussions.

That said, I also hope very much that most units will have more than one optimal way to run. A bad example is Soontir Fel, who has Push the Limit and Autothrusters stapled to his card. Sure, you can mess around with that second modification via the Royal Guard TIE title, but it's basically the same Soontir. I know a few units in Runewars will end up that way, but I'm really hoping that the scaling of upgrades with unit size makes for interesting and dynamic tradeoffs that result in a multitude of ways of fielding each unit.

I'm just going to throw this out there, but I foresee a time when Waiqar's forces will no longer be dependent on blight for victory. Yes, it will be a core aspect of that faction's identity, but I believe we'll see some new units/upgrades that can go toe-to-toe with the Daqan and hold their own.

1 hour ago, Parakitor said:

I'm just going to throw this out there, but I foresee a time when Waiqar's forces will no longer be dependent on blight for victory. Yes, it will be a core aspect of that faction's identity, but I believe we'll see some new units/upgrades that can go toe-to-toe with the Daqan and hold their own.

Oh I agree whole heartedly and the truth is that might already be true. You have to keep in mind for most people experimentation with Runewars right now is taking place with 1 or 2 Core sets, really most people aren't even playing full 200 point games (because even with 2 core sets that really not possible unless you just put everything on the table and even then your short).

Because I run a blog (Gamersdungeon.net) and I belong to a gaming club, we tend to take big ticket items like a new miniature game from FFG a bit serious (you could say we are serious nerds, I wear that badge with pride). As a result our experimentation has been with 3 core sets, proxy units and cards. We are getting a better and better picture all the time as we often play several games a week.

Suffice to say even with that there is a TON of experimentation left to do but I can tell you that from my most recent game with 2x1 Archer units with Combat Ingenuity we have without any doubt discovered a clear meta in the first wave in my opinion. 2x1 Archers (with combat ingenuity) were on average putting 2-3 blight every time they rolled dice and that had immense impact on the battle rendering powerful opposing units effectively useless and forcing the opponent to chase Archers. It really just makes blight 100% reliable and not just to feed mortal wounds for units like Ardus and Lancers, but really has a incredible defense mechanism which rendered the normally aggressive Daqan quite docile.

I agree that blight will probably remain a key aspect of the Undead army for quite a while to come at least. I think its really the versatility of the mechanic being both an offensive and defensive tool that makes it so good, but in particular after the introduction of Combat Ingenuity it is again, 100% reliable now which just makes not using it difficult to justify.

It is worth pointing out however that there is a lot left to be revealed at this point and like Combat Ingenuity, it really only takes 1 card to change the entire list building potential. Its really way to early to assume that Waiqar will be a "blighting" only army and I agree, I would guess that this is a very unlikely scenario once everything on the block is released/revealed.

The bad new is that we'll probably need to buy 2 archers sets... more miniatures than we actually need.

Blight does one more very important thing. It forces the other player to deal with it. Once one player is reacting rather than acting, you already have an advantage. With what is currently released, only golems and Kari can rally as a modifier, other units have to use it as their action. If they are rallying they aren't moving, they aren't attacking, they aren't using skills, and their modifiers are restricted as well. As for Kari and the Golem, if they rally as a modifier there is A LOT of good stuff they aren't doing. The Golem isn't reforming, making it easy to dodge, Kari isn't adding surges or movement mods or defense.

So rallying isn't always convenient or even possible. What about inspiration tokens? Well, if you are using them to remove blight, you aren't using them to ready cards or clear other banes. Plus, if your opponent spent a turn just loading inspiration on his or her units, that's a free turn of maneuvering for you.

Blight is also more than a ticket to mortal strikes. Sure, golems and Kari suffer more from that particular usage of blight, and they find it easier to remove blight. But if you can get 2-3 blight on a unit of oathsworn, they HAVE to remove that blight or it's a turn of being unable to fight effectively. If you can't capitalize on a turn of oathsworn not moving, well then I don't know what to say.

Yes, upgrades will make blight easier to land. Yes, currently Daqan can remove it. However, it is not always a good thing, and if it was harder to shake, Daqan would be utterly brutalized by a handful of blight tokens.

TL;DR: By using blight you are forcing your opponent to rally or use inspiration. Forcing your opponent to do anything is a potent weapon, use it.

10 hours ago, BigKahuna said:

2x1 Archers (with combat ingenuity) were on average putting 2-3 blight every time they rolled dice and that had immense impact on the battle rendering powerful opposing units effectively useless and forcing the opponent to chase Archers.

How are you averaging 2-3 blight per shot? A 2x1 with Combat Ingenuity can't get re-rolls, and there's only 4 dice faces with surges on them for a 1 red and 1 blue dice together. I'm sure my probability math is off, but I calculate a 1/16 chance of getting 3 surges with combat ingenuity, and a 3/16 chance of getting 2 surges. Add in the 1/64 chance of getting 4 surges still only puts you at getting 2 or more surges slightly more often than a quarter of the time.

Are you doing something different, or is my math off?

Just now, Elliphino said:

How are you averaging 2-3 blight per shot? A 2x1 with Combat Ingenuity can't get re-rolls, and there's only 4 dice faces with surges on them for a 1 red and 1 blue dice together. I'm sure my probability math is off, but I calculate a 1/16 chance of getting 3 surges with combat ingenuity, and a 3/16 chance of getting 2 surges. Add in the 1/64 chance of getting 4 surges still only puts you at getting 2 or more surges slightly more often than a quarter of the time.

Are you doing something different, or is my math off?

They can dial in a surge? Are you accounting for that?

3 minutes ago, taylorcowbell said:

They can dial in a surge? Are you accounting for that?

I was... now I realize that I was reading Combat Ingenuity wrong. I thought it added a surge, but it actually reduces the number of surges required to get the effect, which means that the dial is an auto blight. Then you've got a better than 50% chance of rolling one or more surges, so that would get you to the 2-3 blight per shot.

Holy heck.

And now I realize I was doing my probability math wrong in the first place anyway.

Well its becaus... oh... nevermind lol

It's right @FatherTurin but don't forget that many waiqar units do an equal or bigger effort to blight. For example Kari can move + regroup on turn 1 (doesn't make a big difference or inconvenience).

War crier will only sometimes be there, but it might make blight quite double edged.

Don't forget that in equal conditions waiqar units have in general a great disadvantage. Only when synergies work properly can we score a victory.

Many advantages are excludent: if you spend blight to prevent the cavalry from whipping out the carrion lancer (they have a great dice combination), you cannot use the skill. So in general it's a quite difficult situation ATM.

So how about mirror matches?

Seriously though. Has anyone done Waiqar on Waiqar or Daqan on Daqan? Would love to know.

Well. Lingering Dead should definitely give Waiqar an advantage...

Got in one game today, core set only, using upgrades both armies at 116 points. Flanking objective. Undead out deployed me. My oathsworn had to around obstacle to go after archers and he shifted 2 away from them first turn. I collided with obstacle taking an extra turn to get to archers. I lost the game hard core! And he managed to get off a fair amount of blight just to really make it a tough game for me. I won flanking 3 to 2. But the last of my units were killed on final turn. I think the game is balanced with 2 very different play styles

Truth.

On 5/12/2017 at 2:33 PM, FatherTurin said:

Well. Lingering Dead should definitely give Waiqar another advantage...

fixed