3 hours ago, BigKahuna said:

In the end the cheapest way to get "units" is core sets. I have come to the conclusion that 3 core sets is the way to go. Yes, its crappy that you won't get the cards, once again FFG has made it impossible for players putting us in a position to buy expansions just for the cards which sucks, but that's why proxy is a word in gaming.

My gaming group has agreed that card Proxy will be allowed forever but this is largely do to the set up and cost.

Consider that you have 2 core sets.

That gets you 8 trays of Reanimates for example. In order to get a full Reanimates tray you need to buy 2 expansions of the Infantry, which is basically 50 bucks. That's already half the cost of a core set which not only gives you more units for your army but also for your friends army.

From an economics stand point buy 2 reanimates expansions for 50 bucks just so you can get 4 trays makes absolutly no sense compared to buying another core set, the only reason to do it is the cards which again is completly ludicrious to me I would never in a million years do that.

FFG has already build in mechanic metas that will force stupid purchases for competitive players. For example Archers, it WILL be a meta to always include Combat Ingenuity with archers, likely setup up in a 3 2x1 formation (or something along those lines) but if you bought 2 core sets, your short 2 cards, so now you're forced to buy 3 archers to get all the cards you need even though you won't ever use the units, just the cards. Alternatively if you bought 1 core set you will have to buy 3 Archer expansions anyway, even though you already have a unit because combat ingenuity is not included in the core set.

It would upset me if I cared about "official tournaments", but as a player who will only participate in house games where proxy is allowed, it stands to reason that if I need more units I will be buying core sets. Really the only expansions that interest me are those not included in the core set and in that regard I think FFG screwed up. I think they would stand to make a lot more money if they designed this with fair business practices and the player community in mind. I would happily buy any expansion but I will never do it just for the cards.

I think your problem is that you aren't putting any monetary value on the cards. Sure, they are cheap to make and easy to proxy, but rather than thinking about how much more cat efficient a core set is vs expansions for figures, it doesn't seem as bad when you realize you won't have 37 copies of a card you only need a couple of, and you will have more copies of the cards you do want.

7 minutes ago, rowdyoctopus said:

I think your problem is that you aren't putting any monetary value on the cards. Sure, they are cheap to make and easy to proxy, but rather than thinking about how much more cat efficient a core set is vs expansions for figures, it doesn't seem as bad when you realize you won't have 37 copies of a card you only need a couple of, and you will have more copies of the cards you do want.

You are right, I put no monetary value on the cards. For 25 bucks there are 4-5 cards in a set, I'm pretty sure my math is right, its without question absolutely not worth it. You are buying 4 cards for 25 bucks and getting 2 trays of models that cost you approximately 200% more than simply buying a core set.

1 hour ago, BigKahuna said:

You are right, I put no monetary value on the cards. For 25 bucks there are 4-5 cards in a set, I'm pretty sure my math is right, its without question absolutely not worth it. You are buying 4 cards for 25 bucks and getting 2 trays of models that cost you approximately 200% more than simply buying a core set.

Well to be fair. Only a few of the cards in the Core are really worth it. And you could spend 25$ for an Essentials pack for those cards as well. But a Second core is great for models.

9 minutes ago, TallGiraffe said:

Well to be fair. Only a few of the cards in the Core are really worth it. And you could spend 25$ for an Essentials pack for those cards as well. But a Second core is great for models.

He's talking about value of cards in the $25 expansion packs, not thr value of the cards in the core set.

6 minutes ago, WWHSD said:

He's talking about value of cards in the $25 expansion packs, not thr value of the cards in the core set.

Hell your looking at a guy who buys 30$ expansions for 2 cards. Well they may release AA versions at some point. But I am really tempted to buy 2 Reanimate archers for tempered steel.

4 hours ago, TallGiraffe said:

Hell your looking at a guy who buys 30$ expansions for 2 cards. Well they may release AA versions at some point. But I am really tempted to buy 2 Reanimate archers for tempered steel.

Your not the only person who I have ever met that does that sort of thing, I see it all the time. I even have had members in my own gaming group insist that "we never use proxies" and stuff like that (I should say former members).

For me personally the game is about having fun, I don't really care if a card is a "official" printed card or a copy a friend made. As long as we know what it is, where it is and how it works, hell I don't even need it on the table. The only reason to do this sort of thing is for competitive play, but that entire organized play system is designed to make money, not be fun.

13 minutes ago, BigKahuna said:

Your not the only person who I have ever met that does that sort of thing, I see it all the time. I even have had members in my own gaming group insist that "we never use proxies" and stuff like that (I should say former members).

For me personally the game is about having fun, I don't really care if a card is a "official" printed card or a copy a friend made. As long as we know what it is, where it is and how it works, hell I don't even need it on the table. The only reason to do this sort of thing is for competitive play, but that entire organized play system is designed to make money, not be fun.

Now I never said I was forcing others to do it. I just like owning the actual stuff for my list.

3 minutes ago, TallGiraffe said:

Now I never said I was forcing others to do it. I just like owning the actual stuff for my list.

I'm the same way. I let my X-Wing buddies proxy cards if they want, but they only do it occasionally. I can probably count on one hand the number of times I've proxied something for X-Wing.

13 minutes ago, Budgernaut said:

I'm the same way. I let my X-Wing buddies proxy cards if they want, but they only do it occasionally. I can probably count on one hand the number of times I've proxied something for X-Wing.

At least in my area, I expect a surge in players once someone starts making trays that are sold separately.

On 5/8/2017 at 6:10 PM, JasonGlass said:

I have four core worth of undead, and plan on buying x2 infantry upgrades, and one of everything else. I'll buy upcoming undead units as needed, but at $25 for two trays, I probably won't buy as many.

4 core worth of daqan here, thinking about a second infantry as there are 2 wizards I'd like to run at once. (Geo + grayhaven)

To put price in perspective. In order to get all of the options for one faction, not including the crossbowmen, if you buy one core set is about $1500 per faction.

What do I mean by all the options? I will break it down it terms of Waiqar.

Reanimates: 36 trays, 1 core+16expansions

Archers: 26 trays, 1core+12expansions

Lancers: 17trays, 1core+8expansions

Ankuar maru: 1expansion

Waiquar infantry command: 11expansions

Total MSRP: $1380

That price tag is for max tray spam lists of every unit, meaning 200pts of reanimates, and 200pts of archers and 200pts of lancers.

The reason there are 11 infantry command boxes is because you can run 11 2x1's of reanimates all with one of the figure drummers.

If anybody wants I can do this for the Daqan as well. I can't do it for the Latari until we see the deepwood archer formations.

21 minutes ago, Orcdruid said:

To put price in perspective. In order to get all of the options for one faction, not including the crossbowmen, if you buy one core set is about $1500 per faction.

What do I mean by all the options? I will break it down it terms of Waiqar.

Reanimates: 36 trays, 1 core+16expansions

Archers: 26 trays, 1core+12expansions

Lancers: 17trays, 1core+8expansions

Ankuar maru: 1expansion

Waiquar infantry command: 11expansions

Total MSRP: $1380

That price tag is for max tray spam lists of every unit, meaning 200pts of reanimates, and 200pts of archers and 200pts of lancers.

The reason there are 11 infantry command boxes is because you can run 11 2x1's of reanimates all with one of the figure drummers.

If anybody wants I can do this for the Daqan as well. I can't do it for the Latari until we see the deepwood archer formations.

With Ankaur Maru's army building ability you need to include enough expansion to field the maximum sized formation of every non-unique unit in the game to have all of the options available to the Waiqar.

25 minutes ago, WWHSD said:

With Ankaur Maru's army building ability you need to include enough expansion to field the maximum sized formation of every non-unique unit in the game to have all of the options available to the Waiqar.

So add about $400 per faction. $355 in the case of Daqan crossbowmen included, again, assuming that you didn't split your core.

That makes Waiqar $1200 more expensive. This increase only applies to Waiqar however, as Kari's ability will likely only add $200 at most to Daqan armies.

1 minute ago, Orcdruid said:

So add about $400 per faction. $355 in the case of Daqan crossbowmen included, again, assuming that you didn't split your core.

That makes Waiqar $1200 more expensive. This increase only applies to Waiqar however, as Kari's ability will likely only add $200 at most to Daqan armies.

I do think that in practice Ankaur Maru makes the Waiqar appealing to anyone with two core sets (not split). With the contents of two core sets, Ankaur Maru and the Waiqar Infantry Command pack, you've got a lot of different options to field a 200 point Waiqar army.

20 minutes ago, WWHSD said:

I do think that in practice Ankaur Maru makes the Waiqar appealing to anyone with two core sets (not split). With the contents of two core sets, Ankaur Maru and the Waiqar Infantry Command pack, you've got a lot of different options to field a 200 point Waiqar army.

Can you clarify what you mean? You contradicted yourself, and I don't see the connection between what you quoted and your response.

2 minutes ago, Orcdruid said:

Can you clarify what you mean? You contradicted yourself, and I don't see the connection between what you quoted and your response.

I switched gears on you. Instead of figuring out what it would cost to be able to field every possible 200 point army for a faction (which Ankaur Maru makes extra expensive) look at the possibilities that someone that already has two core sets gets when they pick up Ankaur Maru and the Waiqar Infantry Command expansions.

I've got two core sets, and will probably pick up both faction's Infantry Command pack so that I can setup 200 point games and provide both armies. Maru opens up a lot of options to build a Waiqar army using the stuff that I'll already own before I even commit to buying one faction or the other. I suspect that my plan for buying Runewars isn't uncommon among players that like the game but don't have an active local community yet.

I really like waiqar reanimate armies and just realizing that even with my two core sets I will still need 2 reanimate packs to fill out a 4x4 tray. I'm not upset by this because it gives me those upgrade cards and extra dials, and I will likely be getting more than just 2 packs over the next year. Now with maroooo I will need units from other factions(scions and golems!), possibly even a starter of each new faction as they release! Basically, the key with miniatures games is to not think to hard about how much your spending. If I added up my armada and x-wing collections I'll go quietly insane.

Spare a thought for me.. (and im sure others hehe) I have only recently discovered FFG games recently after spending thousands and thousands on straight wargames.....

Over the last 3 month I have bought Imperial Assault, Descent and now Runewars Miniatures....I cant help it...im addicted!!!

Help!!!

A 4 by 4 tray looks huge! That equals all the trays in the core set, with terrain how could you move that?

16 hours ago, Orcdruid said:

To put price in perspective. In order to get all of the options for one faction, not including the crossbowmen, if you buy one core set is about $1500 per faction.

What do I mean by all the options? I will break it down it terms of Waiqar.

Reanimates: 36 trays, 1 core+16expansions

Archers: 26 trays, 1core+12expansions

Lancers: 17trays, 1core+8expansions

Ankuar maru: 1expansion

Waiquar infantry command: 11expansions

Total MSRP: $1380

That price tag is for max tray spam lists of every unit, meaning 200pts of reanimates, and 200pts of archers and 200pts of lancers.

The reason there are 11 infantry command boxes is because you can run 11 2x1's of reanimates all with one of the figure drummers.

If anybody wants I can do this for the Daqan as well. I can't do it for the Latari until we see the deepwood archer formations.

Insane...

On 5/8/2017 at 10:08 PM, Willange said:

For me it's been, "buy 2 of the army box then 1 of each expansion". That works fine except for the announcement of heavy crossbows today. I'm not really sure how many of those to get. I mean, could see wanting 3 sets either for 2 formations of 3x1 or a single 3x2 formation. My problem is that that will cost me $75. Ouch! I assume there will be more units only available in blisters (as opposed to an army box) and those are going to be pricey I'm sure. Not really sure what my stance will be on those going forward.

Yeah this is my concern as well. The game was very cheap to get into but I can from recent releases that they are really geared towards ramping up the cost very dramatically. We went from 100 bucks getting you 16 Trays of Units, to 75 bucks getting you 6 Trays of Units.

Now we are seeing some of those cross faction units which one might have originally thought would be limited to Kari, but with the Ankaur reveal its clear that all factions are going to get something along those lines. Plus there is the whole upgrades thing where you might need more of certain ones like Combat Ingenuity, then what you get in a upgrade set for your core set units.

The curve is definitely rising, I suspect before to long this game will be just as expensive to keep up with as Armada, X-Wing and perhaps even old GW.

42 minutes ago, BigKahuna said:

Yeah this is my concern as well. The game was very cheap to get into but I can from recent releases that they are really geared towards ramping up the cost very dramatically. We went from 100 bucks getting you 16 Trays of Units, to 75 bucks getting you 6 Trays of Units.

Now we are seeing some of those cross faction units which one might have originally thought would be limited to Kari, but with the Ankaur reveal its clear that all factions are going to get something along those lines. Plus there is the whole upgrades thing where you might need more of certain ones like Combat Ingenuity, then what you get in a upgrade set for your core set units.

The curve is definitely rising, I suspect before to long this game will be just as expensive to keep up with as Armada, X-Wing and perhaps even old GW.

I would propose an equation for the calculation of the real average price:

minimum purchase to achieve 200 points x Multiplier

It's absolutely arbitrary . But I state several appreciations

• Some casual players (generally people who play many different games) optimize a minimal expenditure but they are only a small part of the players.
• Some players buy as much as they can as true collectors/gamers, but they are a very small proportion.
• People tend to buy 1 copy of each product
• The internal ballance that the game seems to have makes unlikely to see broken lists based on many units of the same type.

So a humble multiplier could be 2, and a big multiplier for big armies could be 4. An average multiplier could be around 3.

A minimum 200 daqan list is around 120-130€ (more or less the same amount of dollars) 2 shared cores + your favourite box.

A minimum 200 waiqar list is 120-150€/$

A 240€ insvestment is more than enough to have a good variety of lists. After years it could easily rise to 300-400€ . Quite moderate to be a miniatures game.

If we begin with extreme lists it will surely rise, but thats completely unnecesary.

49 minutes ago, BigKahuna said:

Plus there is the whole upgrades thing where you might need more of certain ones like Combat Ingenuity...

Need? Let's keep some perspective. It would be nice to have lots of certain upgrades, but you can do without. Or better yet, foster a good local community and borrow copies from friends when you attend official tournaments. There are ways around it, even though it does get discouraging and disappointing sometimes.

54 minutes ago, BigKahuna said:

The curve is definitely rising, I suspect before to long this game will be just as expensive to keep up with as Armada, X-Wing and perhaps even old GW.

Was there any question? I don't think, "Wow, this game is CHEAP!" was a reason any of us bought into this game.

For me the cost isn't a huge concern. I have the extra cash (even if I really SHOULD save more of it) and I've stopped keeping up with Armada, X-wing, and AGOT the card game so that I could justify it a little more. For me, it's just a matter of being "sensible". I mostly play with family, so just pretending we have more of an upgrade card isn't a huge concern. We mostly just buy what we want in terms of models. I was saying earlier that I had a hard time with crossbows because it's not like I can just buy X-amount and know for sure I won't want more any time soon. It's more confusing because I just don't know yet how many I'll want whereas the core set kinda just told you how many haha.

For a unit like crossbows, I don't really see the need to buy more than 6 trays worth, so that's definitely my maximum number right there, but it took me a lot of analyzing to come to that number. Really my original complaint was that I'm lazy I guess

For the moment I fully intend to buy every expansion once, cool ones twice and perhaps once in a while more.

Like crossbowmen; odds are I will end up with three of those.

But I do have the luxury of having money left at the end of the month.

(for the time being. If FFG keeps releasing games like this, Xwing and Armada...)