16 minutes ago, Sir13scott said:

I for one think thatFFG made the best decision they could. Personally I would disqualify from the tournament, but also think a ban longer than a couple months is too harsh for a miniatures game. Fly loose and forgive someone who made a dumb decision. Punish them, but be fair and offer a chance for him to redeem himself. I for one would prefer a game that is forgiving and fair

While I agree with this idea, I do feel the fact that the offended party did not receive the restitution casts a long shadow on this decision. Unless FFG can rectify that problem (which is definitely a sticky wicket thanks to the amount of play that has happened sense the infraction), I fear people will remember the shadow rather than the forgiving act.

33 minutes ago, Zazaa said:

His punishment will be the first case in world championships and it should be used as an example...

If we're a community that will only avoid cheating if the punitive cost is high, then the games dead anyway and we don't need anyone made an example of. If we're the type of community thats going to conduct ourselves with honor because we respect each other's time and the value of a good time, then we don't need anyone made an example of.

But I agree with the thought that the wronged party should have been given the win

4 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

While I agree with this idea, I do feel the fact that the offended party did not receive the restitution casts a long shadow on this decision. Unless FFG can rectify that problem (which is definitely a sticky wicket thanks to the amount of play that has happened sense the infraction), I fear people will remember the shadow rather than the forgiving act.

No for sure mike deserves compensation and a formal apology on the behalf of FFG. A good fix would be free entry and travel to next year's worlds, free promo cards and or tokens.

Edit: I also think a good compensation would be to give him wave XI ships way ahead of release

2 minutes ago, Lobokai said:

If we're a community that will only avoid cheating if the punitive cost is high, then the games dead anyway and we don't need anyone made an example of. If we're the type of community that going to conduct ourselves with honor because we respect each other's time and the value of a good time, then we don't need anyone made an example of.

But I agree with the thought that the wronged party should have been given the win

I'm not saying that any type of cheating is acceptable, but in tournaments where people actually pay lot of money it should be discouraged harder. FFG screw up this one period. Official rules should say clearly about cheating equals disqualification. How would you feel about paying that sum and get screwed like this. People are not only buying tickets for the tournament but for their flights, hotels and some even visas to enter states. Some people are easily using 1000usd+ just to attend.

12 minutes ago, Sir13scott said:

No for sure mike deserves compensation and a formal apology on the behalf of FFG. A good fix would be free entry and travel to next year's worlds, free promo cards and or tokens.

Edit: I also think a good compensation would be to give him wave XI ships way ahead of release

Mike really deserves compensation with formal apologize!

There should be no discussion on this. You blatantly and flagrantly cheat at an official FFG tournament, you get disqualified and perma-banned from any other FFG tournament. This is black and white, and exactly the reason FFG created a banned list in the first place.

8 minutes ago, Ikka said:

There should be no discussion on this. You blatantly and flagrantly cheat at an official FFG tournament, you get disqualified and perma-banned from any other FFG tournament. This is black and white, and exactly the reason FFG created a banned list in the first place.

Well in every sports banning last some time, one season etc. I would like to see one year ban so next year world's would be out of the limit. Ban forever would be too harsh.

7 minutes ago, Zazaa said:

Well in every sports banning last some time, one season etc. I would like to see one year ban so next year world's would be out of the limit. Ban forever would be too harsh.

I can agree to the year ban.

51 minutes ago, Lobokai said:

If we're a community that will only avoid cheating if the punitive cost is high, then the games dead anyway and we don't need anyone made an example of. If we're the type of community thats going to conduct ourselves with honor because we respect each other's time and the value of a good time, then we don't need anyone made an example of.

You only control your behaviour, not everyone elses. Even if you and your close friends behave as you describe, what's stopping cheaters from taking part in the community, if all they get is a slap on the wrist when caught ?

I genuinely hope this guy is made an example of, if not by FFG, then by the community. Given that his name is public, I sincerely hope he has a hard time finding people and places to play at in the near future.

That being said, between NOT giving the wronged party any restitution and giving a random guy a win next round, I think FFG handled this very poorly.

Well the cheating thread is on it's 11th page now. Going to get larger. Here's a forum meme I made up.

Before FFG Worlds

After the Dial Cheating Scandal

I am very concerned for TOs and Judges like myself.

It is very hard to have good strong evidence that someone is cheating, even if by non-sanctioned means like a twitch feed.

What is set now is a standard that defaults to at-most one game loss for flagrant cheating caught on video. Anything else like one person's word against another is "useless" now.

Not only do we have to deal with judgement calls about accidental bumps that advantageous one opponent or slow rollers/time suckers but now if caught, one or two loss games. The rest... Go forth and take advantage of your opponent. If caught no big deal. Build animosity in the community and move from more casual attitudes about each other into a paranoid distrustful atmosphere.

Because that will help the game, distrust of your opponent.

I do believe that the handling of this situation is a complete failure for TOs and Judges along with players.

Should have allowed playing to continue until properly reviewed. With what I have seen from the video should be wins for all his prior opponents, his DQ, and a review for warning or a timed banning (first time offenders).

I like FFG, but this is a failure.

2 minutes ago, rilesman said:

I am very concerned for TOs and Judges like myself.

It is very hard to have good strong evidence that someone is cheating, even if by non-sanctioned means like a twitch feed.

What is set now is a standard that defaults to at-most one game loss for flagrant cheating caught on video. Anything else like one person's word against another is "useless" now.

Not only do we have to deal with judgement calls about accidental bumps that advantageous one opponent or slow rollers/time suckers but now if caught, one or two loss games. The rest... Go forth and take advantage of your opponent. If caught no big deal. Build animosity in the community and move from more casual attitudes about each other into a paranoid distrustful atmosphere.

Because that will help the game, distrust of your opponent.

I do believe that the handling of this situation is a complete failure for TOs and Judges along with players.

Should have allowed playing to continue until properly reviewed. With what I have seen from the video should be wins for all his prior opponents, his DQ, and a review for warning or a timed banning (first time offenders).

I like FFG, but this is a failure.

I for one will not be using this as a precedent. The rules are clear on this kind of situatiin, and as a TO, I will continue to follow them.

Not having video proof is always difficult, but if anyone gets caught red-handed, they need to be DQ'd

This all makes Turbo Toker's "Looking at opponent's dial" thread seem oddly prophetic.

8 minutes ago, Bike Stunts said:

This all makes Turbo Toker's "Looking at opponent's dial" thread seem oddly prophetic.

Not really. 2 very different things

Just now, Holmelund said:

Not really. 2 very different things

I know, but in the thread I think I remember people were talking about FFG tourney rules not having a clearly defined response to cheating.

Guys, penalty and all that isn't ideal, but the important issue is that someone, one of us if you will, got screwed over royaly and had his complains handwaved away. This is where FFG must be held accountable. I, for my part, will take to ending my posts with "Furthermore, I believe that Michael has to be compensated" (not going to use the full name so it isn't plastered all over the internet, but you know who I mean, FFG) until this issue is resolved in a proper manner for him.

First of all, what a dumb dumb, umm, donkey. The camera was on!

The real problem is the ripple effect. MOV is very important for standings. So if you give him the loss, what is the MOV? Did he cheat in any of his other games? The game 4 guy got free points from this too. Who did make the cut that may not have had he not cheated? Who didn't make the cut that would have had he not cheated? One bad actor can really screw up the whole system, and truth be told, because of the ripple effect, it is d a m ned if you do, d a m ned if you don't on FFG's part. Someone one who had no part of those games is getting affected in one way or another no matter how they handle this.

Just a bad situation all the way around.

I believe the player cheated. Correction, I believe the motion of the thumb indicates the person cheated. That said, however, all of my attempts to "see" the original movement selected in the first moments his dial was flipped and after the thumb rolled across the dial were thwarted by resolution issues. I also cannot see, again resolution and angle, if the dial actually shifted during the thumb roll. I think a judiciary would have a tough time "proving" the cheat even happened. To you and me, the burden of proof may be as simple as "well, it sure looks like it, right there!" To FFG I imagine they want a bit more conclusive evidence that the thumb roll created a new move. If that evidence existed, in a timely fashion, I think the much desired hammer of justice would have rung much more loudly than it did in yesterday's decision. The burden of proof in the court of public opinion is a shaky foundation. Again, I do believe the player cheated, but that opinion falls woefully short of evidence.

2 hours ago, Bike Stunts said:

I know, but in the thread I think I remember people were talking about FFG tourney rules not having a clearly defined response to cheating.

That's the flip side of giving the TO a good amount of 'sovereignty' in making decisions: (s)he might rule in a way that a lot of forum members don't understand. But the TO's job is not to do what is popular, it is to do what is fair. And (s)he is free to decide on what constitutes a fair decision.

So many armchair TOs. You can really see who hasn't seen the backend of a tournament like this. Worlds is crazy for FFG. There was a lot going on behind the scenes that no one knows about.

Did he cheat on purpose? I think he did, but because of the quality of the video there is some doubt. Because of that FFG has to be very careful about how to handle this. Unless you were in the room and know exactly how the discussion between the judges went, maybe chill on freaking out on them about how they handled it.

Do we know for sure that he didn't end up with a round 3 loss? From what I had heard he got a round 3 and round 4 loss, so the opponent he cheated against ended up with the win. Now, that info is second hand, so I'm not sure how accurate that is, but I'm betting a lot of people's info is at least second or third hand. Legitimately curious if anyone knows for sure what the end result was.

TL/DR: until you judge a tournament that has 700+ players over multiple different game systems, with multiple tournaments in each game system. Maybe cut some slack to the people who do.

8 hours ago, Nastrado said:

A few things the OP got WRONG.

1. He only got one loss for cheating and it was his next game. So the guy he cheated got screwed over and had a loss

2. The cheater made it to Day 2 with a 5-2 record

3. The person who got cheated missed day 2 by one victory, which if the TOs and FFG had not dropped the ball he would have had.

FFG screwed this up royally. There is all the evidence you need in that video to see that he did this willfully and with intent. Ban him from all FFG events.

Now lets just wait for the cheater to win the entire thing. That would be the icing on the cake.

Maybe he originally intended to do a 3 right and accidentally set a 3 left and "corrected" his mistake. It was still an intentional act and for that he should be DQed from the tournament. Hell, I don't even play competitive but if you get caught cheating you should be out imho.

4 minutes ago, J43G3RM31ST3R said:

Maybe he originally intended to do a 3 right and accidentally set a 3 left and "corrected" his mistake. It was still an intentional act and for that he should be DQed from the tournament. Hell, I don't even play competitive but if you get caught cheating you should be out imho.

But he did a 2 right, not a mirror of left from right. Totally different maneuver.

1 hour ago, J43G3RM31ST3R said:

Maybe he originally intended to do a 3 right and accidentally set a 3 left and "corrected" his mistake. It was still an intentional act and for that he should be DQed from the tournament. Hell, I don't even play competitive but if you get caught cheating you should be out imho.

I agree that it'd be interesting to wait to see if there is a post-worlds response from FFG on this.

Expanding on the "We cannot say definitively what the original maneuver was nor what it was changed to," I would think that as a general rule, once you look at your opponent and say, "You good?" "Yeah, I'm good," take a step back from the table and keep your hands off of your dials until it is your turn to activate.

Obviously that is my personal style and I am not out to set to control other people's behavior, but with Store Champs coming up, I think this incident will be on the back on everyone's mind. That sucks as it moves the initial relationship between players from "I trust you will compete within the rules" to "I need to ensure that you will not engage in any bad behaviour."

I think as a community, or at least for myself, we could practice some "intentional accountability" (or whatever we want to call it) for ourselves for this upcoming competitive season. You don't have to be sunshine and rainbows if that is not your personality, but at the very least, it encourages a return to the "Plastic spaceships, amirite?"

TL;DR - Fly casual, don't be a ****, and don't touch your dials til it's your activation window OR you've already activated all your ships and your opponent knows your setting dials for next round.

6 hours ago, Playxwing said:

I believe the player cheated. Correction, I believe the motion of the thumb indicates the person cheated. That said, however, all of my attempts to "see" the original movement selected in the first moments his dial was flipped and after the thumb rolled across the dial were thwarted by resolution issues. I also cannot see, again resolution and angle, if the dial actually shifted during the thumb roll. I think a judiciary would have a tough time "proving" the cheat even happened. To you and me, the burden of proof may be as simple as "well, it sure looks like it, right there!" To FFG I imagine they want a bit more conclusive evidence that the thumb roll created a new move. If that evidence existed, in a timely fashion, I think the much desired hammer of justice would have rung much more loudly than it did in yesterday's decision. The burden of proof in the court of public opinion is a shaky foundation. Again, I do believe the player cheated, but that opinion falls woefully short of evidence.

Zoom and enhance! Zoom and enhance!

oh wait, this isn't a tv show/movie....

that said, some of us feel that it IS possible to see enough detail on the dial to tell that it was changed