Thing is, you don't need to specifically see what the move actually was. If you can find a marker of some description (Series of Reds? 3/3/4) All you would need to do is find that same sequence and determine if it is in exactly the same place.

On 5/7/2017 at 0:30 AM, Bike Stunts said:

This all makes Turbo Toker's "Looking at opponent's dial" thread seem oddly prophetic.

Thing is I can see that as an actual mistake, especially in the mirror where tournament rules already state that you must place dials on your pilot card instead of on the board to keep that from happening. In past tournament FAQs you were allowed to place dials on your pilot card instead of next to the model to keep that from happening.

This wasn't looking at opponent's dial, this was changing your own dial, and it was no accident.

However in a previous FAQ such action was declared intolerable. That rule has been omitted in subsequent FAQs thus no longer intolerable in some regards. Maybe the ruling will be brought back in future FAQs.

thread for reference

23 hours ago, Elavion said:

Edit: We have been heard- the TO decided to change the penality to a warning+game loss. Not perfect, but acceptable. However, this was done without giving any compensation to the cheated player, so they still screwed up.

I belive the cheater should get kicked out of the tournament instantly, or at the very least get a loss for that game- the way this was handled telegraphs such behaviour as "acceptable unless you get caught twice".

We should do everything in our power to get rid of the cheaters in our community. FFG is moving down a very slippery slope.

P.S. Do not link evidence in this thread lest it be removed as a lynch attempt. It's easy enough to find and the cheating is blatantly obvious- the offender picked up his dial while his opponent was distracted, changed it to a different maneuver, laid it down faceup and immediately started executing the new maneuver.

I don't condone what was done and the players action, he has, is and will continue to pay the price for a mistake I have only caught my 9 year old trying to get away with once..

But.. how many other rules infractions went "unnoticed" because several hundred armchair judges weren't watching those games? Sure people are criticizing FFG for taking their time about making a decision and then criticizing the scale of the punishment. The flip side of people bemoaning the 20 mins it apparently took the staff to come up with the judgement also reflects the fact that, as a community we will and have scrutinized every single facet of this incident people enhancing the video to prove the dial was changed, calling the commentators for NOT spotting it (??!!!? no idea why that's their job), his opponent for not spotting it (he was moving his ships). But most importantly, FFG took their time and adjusted their decision based on establishing a precedent. Over the past 5 worlds events (and all the other high level ones) no player (to my knowledge) has attempted to cheat in this way and been caught (after the fact), so that long decision making process reflects what FFG have just had to do and what effect it not only had on that days play, but all future competitions.

I imagine after this Worlds, there will be a change to the tournament rules document and probably the FAQ to reflect this (not least to nerf Firesprays..... )

9 minutes ago, boomaster said:

I don't condone what was done and the players action, he has, is and will continue to pay the price for a mistake I have only caught my 9 year old trying to get away with once..

But.. how many other rules infractions went "unnoticed" because several hundred armchair judges weren't watching those games? Sure people are criticizing FFG for taking their time about making a decision and then criticizing the scale of the punishment. The flip side of people bemoaning the 20 mins it apparently took the staff to come up with the judgement also reflects the fact that, as a community we will and have scrutinized every single facet of this incident people enhancing the video to prove the dial was changed, calling the commentators for NOT spotting it (??!!!? no idea why that's their job), his opponent for not spotting it (he was moving his ships). But most importantly, FFG took their time and adjusted their decision based on establishing a precedent. Over the past 5 worlds events (and all the other high level ones) no player (to my knowledge) has attempted to cheat in this way and been caught (after the fact), so that long decision making process reflects what FFG have just had to do and what effect it not only had on that days play, but all future competitions.

I imagine after this Worlds, there will be a change to the tournament rules document and probably the FAQ to reflect this (not least to nerf Firesprays..... )

Everyone knows that double fire sprays are op

He saw his opponent's move, picked up his dial and changed his maneuver. Malicious or not it is cheating and he should have been DQ'd with his opponent awarded a victory.

And while he said - she said type situations might require the TO to try and gauge impact on the outcome, VT don't lie.

Burn the witch.

Well here's the thing, how many players were at worlds??? How many TO's were there??? Yes the person cheated, yes the cheated person should have been given some sort compensation, but how many of you have TO'd large events like GenCon, or other big conventions. I have for FASA and PP, and you never have enough eyes to watch everyone, I don't know if the head TO or Marshall said anything before the start of Worlds, but I always did. Would I have DQ'd him, yes banned him??? well that's another story, because it can backfire in FFG's face if said cheater has lots of friends who will spread the word then FFG faces a drop off of folks who will come to Worlds or other events. Its a fine line Game Companies walk in large events like this, so if the Marshall is an employee of FFG he might be under rules that don't allow him to DQ someone. I don't know I wasn't there but having been in TO's shoes at large events it can be a thankless job a lot of the times.

16 minutes ago, Ghostrider58 said:

Well here's the thing, how many players were at worlds??? How many TO's were there??? Yes the person cheated, yes the cheated person should have been given some sort compensation, but how many of you have TO'd large events like GenCon, or other big conventions. I have for FASA and PP, and you never have enough eyes to watch everyone, I don't know if the head TO or Marshall said anything before the start of Worlds, but I always did. Would I have DQ'd him, yes banned him??? well that's another story, because it can backfire in FFG's face if said cheater has lots of friends who will spread the word then FFG faces a drop off of folks who will come to Worlds or other events. Its a fine line Game Companies walk in large events like this, so if the Marshall is an employee of FFG he might be under rules that don't allow him to DQ someone. I don't know I wasn't there but having been in TO's shoes at large events it can be a thankless job a lot of the times.

Well I would say good riddens to all of them. Last thing X-wing needs is a game full of fake news and alternative facts.

31 minutes ago, Ghostrider58 said:

well that's another story, because it can backfire in FFG's face if said cheater has lots of friends who will spread the word then FFG faces a drop off of folks who will come to Worlds or other events.

If they are the sort to sanction cheating, well we don't need them. Play fair or don't play is my approach.

RoV

i love how many people in this thread have never made an honest mistake in your life

I'm just saying guys I seen this happen before, do I condone cheating, never, should he have been DQ'd yes, should the cheated player been compensated yes, but at the end of the day its FFG call...They made (rightly or wrongly) the best call they could......

2 hours ago, Ghostrider58 said:

I'm just saying guys I seen this happen before, do I condone cheating, never, should he have been DQ'd yes, should the cheated player been compensated yes, but at the end of the day its FFG call...They made (rightly or wrongly) the best call they could......

It's FFG's call to make,but it's the public's right to judge and let them know if they disagree.

9 hours ago, Sanguinary Dan said:

He saw his opponent's move, picked up his dial and changed his maneuver. Malicious or not it is cheating and he should have been DQ'd with his opponent awarded a victory.

And while he said - she said type situations might require the TO to try and gauge impact on the outcome, VT don't lie.

Burn the witch.

He changed his own move when he realized that Palob was going to bump his rear most Contracted Scout.. meaning they'd be token less.

FFG making a call does not mean FFG made the best call they could. That's a nonsensical statement. You can make a choice in a situation and still make the objectively wrong choice.

51 minutes ago, ScottieATF said:

FFG making a call does not mean FFG made the best call they could. That's a nonsensical statement. You can make a choice in a situation and still make the objectively wrong choice.

I would give up and that sentiment, you will not change anyones mind with logic on the internet.
Subjectivity is the name of the game and FFG can do whatever they like, they will still do right, because that is their decision. ;-)

7 hours ago, LordBlades said:

It's FFG's call to make,but it's the public's right to judge and let them know if they disagree.

Totally agree, but you I and everyone else weren't TO's and we weren't making the call, as I said they made the best call they could at the time, I even said I didn't think it was the right call. At the end of the day this is why I don't play in large events, because cheating happens, no one wants to call anyone on it for fear of backlash (not a problem for me, you cheat playing me I will call you on it) and really do folks need to cheat to win to make them selves feel better. Lest we all remember at the day all we are doing is pushing lumps of plastic around on a vinyl map, rolling more lumps of plastic in a fictional game setting. If you have to cheat to win to make yourself feel better you really need a new life...

Well both players did not make the final cut. Unfortunate for the player up against the cheater, it would have been awesome if he made it after that game even with the loss. Oh well, we will hear more about it in the after worlds podcast no doubt.

Worlds over, cheater did not win (worlds or even a prestigious placing at worlds). victim did not win either. No one wins (lol sort of like war)

Cheat, cheat never changes.

Cheat-ing What is it good for, absolutely nothing!

Well the arguement is, like your anology... Cheating wins. Just as who wins in that scenario? War.

The concept itself is a little more legitimized.

On 5/8/2017 at 10:32 AM, BTNeophyte said:

i love how many people in this thread have never made an honest mistake in your life

Clearly you didn't see the video footage of him cheating. There's a big difference between what he did and an 'honest mistake'.

RoV

5 hours ago, Rat of Vengence said:

Clearly you didn't see the video footage of him cheating. There's a big difference between what he did and an 'honest mistake'.

RoV

So I need to clear some things up. I am not debating whether or not he broke the rules. That is clear on the stream. For me, breaking the rules =/= cheating. Breaking the rules with malicious intent = cheating. FFG should have a judge document like magic that addresses both sides of the issue.

I am more concerned about the witch hunt reactions on the internet. The vitriol some people have shown is unacceptable.

14 minutes ago, BTNeophyte said:

So I need to clear some things up. I am not debating whether or not he broke the rules. That is clear on the stream. For me, breaking the rules =/= cheating. Breaking the rules with malicious intent = cheating. FFG should have a judge document like magic that addresses both sides of the issue.

I am more concerned about the witch hunt reactions on the internet. The vitriol some people have shown is unacceptable.

I think calling it an 'honest mistake' was a bit misleading; it doesn't look like you're assuming true honesty here.

Otherwise, yes, there is a kind of mob mentality that is not very pleasant. And it might motivate the judges/TOs not to bee too harsh, because the person committing an infraction in front of the camera won't just be punished by the sanctions the tournament has to offer. So it is possible that the responses on this board have the opposite effect relative to what The Mob wants.

I keep reading people doubting the dial change. Also the commentators on gold squadron doubted he actually changed the dial. It made me wonder if he was just punished only for the infraction of picking up his dial.

So here is a slightly enhanced version. Unfortunately I had to lower the quality a tad to upload to the forums. This is an enhanced image of the dial before the thumb slide. Also the results of video enhancement are limited due to the way twitch effectively compresses the footage.

You can clearly make out the colours of the moves which in turn indicates exactly where the 2 white right bank is (the move he plays). It is quite clearly a full 2 moves away from the selection.

Software used for this enhancement was Amped 5 (video forensic software)

Tools used: range select, crop, smart resize, corrective perspective, stabilise, frame average, sharpen, expose, rotate.

One more thing is that the current move selected is a red 3 left bank

I have had quite enough of this. This is aimed at those who are making and sharing memes, or threatening this guy directly or indirectly. What you are effectively doing is bullying someone. People commit suicide over stuff like this so drop it. For all we know, the guy made one stupid decision in his entire x-wing career, and now is being vilified as some kind of antichrist. I am aware that no-one likes to see cheating, but good lord guys, get a **** grip. Some of you are acting like he murdered his opponent.

I am aware that a lot of the frustration comes from the official FFG response, which was frankly a bit pathetic. Regardless of anything else, the guy was caught on this occasion, and his ‘punishment’ was somewhat lacking, as was the sense that his opponent wasn’t fairly recompensed. However, whining online will have literally zero impact on this, so as I have said elsewhere, you can either get over it, or write to FFG and complain.

While this is blatant cheating and the initial penalty was a slap on the wrist, based on what has happened in the past with other players who cheated in this manner, he probably will be suspended from FFG organized play at some point.
Examples:

See:

https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/op/spolicy/

and
http://www.cardgamedb.com/forums/index.php?/topic/28384-us-nationals-video-shows-winning-eldorath-player-repeatedly-drew-3-cards-in-the-hq-phases-of-finals-and-semi-finals/

On 5/9/2017 at 6:20 PM, BTNeophyte said:

So I need to clear some things up. I am not debating whether or not he broke the rules. That is clear on the stream. For me, breaking the rules =/= cheating. Breaking the rules with malicious intent = cheating. FFG should have a judge document like magic that addresses both sides of the issue.

I am more concerned about the witch hunt reactions on the internet. The vitriol some people have shown is unacceptable.

Then why did you equate it to an 'honest mistake'? He made a choice, and errors of judgments (if that's what you meant by 'mistake') have consequences. It isn't a witch-hunt. It is a call for FFG to have a consequence appropriate to the situation, which they didn't.

Vitriol? Yeah, some people are over the top. Hung, drawn and quartered is probably going too far. But don't excuse his choice.

RoV

On 9.5.2017 at 11:05 AM, atr127 said:

I have had quite enough of this. This is aimed at those who are making and sharing memes, or threatening this guy directly or indirectly. What you are effectively doing is bullying someone. People commit suicide over stuff like this so drop it. For all we know, the guy made one stupid decision in his entire x-wing career, and now is being vilified as some kind of antichrist. I am aware that no-one likes to see cheating, but good lord guys, get a **** grip. Some of you are acting like he murdered his opponent.

I am aware that a lot of the frustration comes from the official FFG response, which was frankly a bit pathetic. Regardless of anything else, the guy was caught on this occasion, and his ‘punishment’ was somewhat lacking, as was the sense that his opponent wasn’t fairly recompensed. However, whining online will have literally zero impact on this, so as I have said elsewhere, you can either get over it, or write to FFG and complain.

Yes!

As the Gold Squadron statement points out, It's Just A Game. A game that many of us, including me, love, but nevertheless Just A Game.