So not only we had someone cheating a win at worlds, but we also had a punishment that further damaged the integrity of the whole tournament since player 1 opponent in the game 4 (someone who at that point was 3-0 and at the top tables) got a free win.
That's actually bothers me more than player 1 not being DQed...
1 hour ago, Ebak said:With all respect, while I can see what people say. The customer is NOT always right. They THINK they are always right. Very big distinction there.
Maybe FFG did drop the ball, maybe they made the best decision they could with the evidence laid out before them. If the cheater declared it was not intentional and completely accidental..they can't prove otherwise. Yes the video, but the video only shows his thumb moving across the dial, that part is fact. However, we don't know if he was looking at the dial since we cannot see his head. Maybe he is saying "I moved on to my ship, but my opponent reminded me that it was his ship and he started to do it. I don't remember moving the dial, but it's possible that I might have accidentally moved it."
Slippery slope I know, the problem is FFG are screwed either way:
If it WAS an accident (merely playing devil's advocate) and it is eventually discovered to be an accident and he was ejected from worlds for that accident. I can see the community reacting just as harshly against FFG.
Likewise, if it wasn't an accident, and don't make a harsh ruling (I'd hardly call a game loss a slap on the wrist...a warning is a slap on the wrist) then the community would also react badly as we have seen.
However, FFG can only go on the evidence they are presented and what people say, and people will lie to cover their own ***. Therefore they probably were unable to confirm that deliberately planned cheating had occurred and had to err on the side of caution. If you cannot without a shadow of a doubt prove that cheating did occur, then you have a problem because it could be some other reasoning. There's a reason we don't convict people for 'could haves' and 'maybes'.
What upsets me more...is the armchair judging and righteous indignation our community has displayed at this. An arrogant proclaim that "WE have all the information, and WE make the call, he is guilty! GUILTY! GUILTY! Anyone who says otherwise is WRONG!"
We don't know how FFG's investigation goes, the process may not even be over. They had to make a call, they can't just pause the event for hours on end while they investigate the matter. They make a call and investigate it when they can and possibly come up with proper sanctions against the supposed cheating player.
I find it ludicrous how people stated that a round and lunch break is plenty of time. How do you know it's plenty of time? Are you part of the committee or group that made the actual call and investigated the matter? No? the shut up and let the judges do their job and stop harassing them and saying that their calls are messed up and wrong.
If you can't take a judge's ruling, what are you doing here? The point of a judge is to do just that; judge. Yet apparently when that make the immediate call to keep things moving, they are instantly declared as wrong without people knowing the exact facts of the situation.
Now, I'm not saying what the cheater did was right. Clearly, he was in the wrong in some way, even if he didn't cheat and claimed it as an accident he was still in the wrong for holding his dial. He should have immediately returned the dial to the table face-down. Likewise...he has been vilified by this community and has to live with the knowledge that he will most likely ridicule for the rest of his days playing X-Wing. That does not mean it is okay doxx or anything that would effect a players personal life like that.
So all a cheater has to say, is that it was an accident, and they get away with a much softer punishment. That really opens up the flood gates to cheaters. You are telling cheaters that they just need to say they didn't mean to. According to your failed logic, its impossible to ever prove malice.
To me, if someone is caught cheating, the punishment should be the same regardless if the person says it was an accident or not. This policy is far easier for TO's to rule on too. They do not have to try to prove intent which is a very difficult task especially given the BS arguments that White Knights like to throw around.
Here is the easy rule, if u cheat, your out of the tournament even if its an accident. That is simple enough. Tournament players need to be held at a higher standard especially at Worlds. Those that make unintentional mistakes which are considered rule breaking, should be DQ'd. They are not ready to play at this calibre and need to practice more.
Edited by Rexler BrathIndeed. Just make a zero tolerance policy.
If an individual TO wants to give a more lenient punishment then he can do so if the situation warrants it. Like a new player who misplays a rule, or a genuinely loose dial causing problems. But the baseline should be zero tolerance. Especially at high levels of play.
You don't have total noobs playing at Worlds. This is the world championship. Standards must be upheld.
1 hour ago, Ebak said:Failure #1 - I don't know how I feel about this. While the community should probably keep its collective nose out of an official investigation...the streamers actually saying that is rude (but I don't know what they said exactly, so I cannot make that call and I am only going on the information displayed here.)
29 minutes ago, Rexler Brath said:So all a cheater has to say, is that it was an accident, and they get away with a much softer punishment. That really opens up the flood gates to cheaters. You are telling cheaters that they just need to say they didn't mean to. According to your failed logic, its impossible to ever prove malice.
To me, if someone is caught cheating, the punishment should be the same regardless if the person says it was an accident or not. This policy is far easier for TO's to rule on too. They do not have to try to prove intent which is a very difficult task especially given the BS arguments that White Knights like to through around.
Here is the easy rule, if u cheat, ur out of the tournament even if its an accident. That is simple enough. Tournament players need to be held at a higher standard especially at Worlds. Those that make unintentional mistakes which are considered rule breaking, should be DQ'd. They are not ready to play at this calibre and need to practice more.
4
Oh, I agree, merely playing devil's advocate and state that is what they could be doing and why the ruling is not as harsh and not stating that this is how we should view it.
At the same time, mistakes happen due to circumstance and in certain circumstances (of which this is exempt I think) then better thinking needs to be applied to the matter.
What I despise, is the community telling people how to do their job. That is not what the community is there to do. Judges do their jobs and do it to the best that they are able with what is presented to them. None of us are qualified or capable of making a judgement without being there and performing our own investigation.
1 minute ago, Ebak said:Oh, I agree, merely playing devil's advocate and state that is what they could be doing and why the ruling is not as harsh and not stating that this is how we should view it.
At the same time, mistakes happen due to circumstance and in certain circumstances (of which this is exempt I think) then better thinking needs to be applied to the matter.
What I despise, is the community telling people how to do their job. That is not what the community is there to do. Judges do their jobs and do it to the best that they are able with what is presented to them. None of us are qualified or capable of making a judgement without being there and performing our own investigation.
What I despise is White knights telling the community how the community should react. What gives you the authority to tell the community how to do its job?
4 minutes ago, Rexler Brath said:What I despise is White knights telling the community how the community should react. What gives you the authority to tell the community how to do its job?
Its 'job' isn't to call out judges. In fact, it doesn't have a 'job' it is a community that engages in discussion, not witch hunting. It is a judge's job to make rulings and decisions. Doesn't mean I can't get annoyed about it, doesn't mean you have to like what the judges say. However, I don't hear the judges coming on here and calling out the community for putting pressure on them, yet I hear you specifically coming on here and acting like you'd be a better judge when you may not even know the full details of the event.
Edited by Ebak1 minute ago, Ebak said:Its 'job' isn't to call out judges. In fact, it doesn't have a 'job' it is a community that engages in discussion, not witch hunting. It is a judge's job to make rulings and decisions. Doesn't mean I can't get annoyed about it, doesn't mean you have to like what the judges say. However, I don't hear the judges coming on here and calling out the community for putting pressure on them, yet I hear you specifically coming on here and acting like you'd be a better judge when you may not even know the full details of the event.
What is your job? Who appointed you judge over the community's reactions? You are acting exactly the same way towards the community as the community is acting toward the judges. Its called hypocritical which is very common for White Knights. GG, I have no interest in continuing discussion with someone such as yourself unable to apply their own logic to themselves - White Knights you are.
Wow 17 pages. So how many more pages will be tacked on to this thread?
Your response was lackluster and will encourage cheaters.
That is a very poor argument "You're just doing the same thing!". I have no authority over the community...doesn't mean I can't despise what is going on. People seem to want some kind of witch hunt and I think that is even more damaging to the status of the game that we have such a community that would spout vitriol without waiting until we have all the facts and see if FFG ban him from future events.
Last time there was a big ban, it happened a few days after the event itself. As for being hypocritical...so you're fine telling Judge's and FFG what the ruling should be, do but god forbid someone responds in kind and tell you to know your role, shut your mouth? If anyone is being hypocritical, it is yourself.
Regardless, it is clear that you and I are not going to agree on a few points, but agree in others:
Points we disagree on:
Also, this is probably a pointless endeavour of mine, but can you stop using the term 'white knight' just because someone disagrees with you. Labelling someone doesn't encourage discussion, it shuts down discussion by dismissing them. It's a personal attack that lends nothing to the discussion at hand.
Edited by Ebak13 minutes ago, Ebak said:That is a very poor argument "You're just doing the same thing!". I have no authority over the community...doesn't mean I can't despise what is going on. People seem to want some kind of witch hunt and I think that is even more damaging to the status of the game that we have such a community that would spout vitriol without waiting until we have all the facts and see if FFG ban him from future events.
Last time there was a big ban, it happened a few days after the event itself. As for being hypocritical...so you're fine telling Judge's and FFG what the ruling should be, do but god forbid someone responds in kind and tell you to know your role, shut your mouth? If anyone is being hypocritical, it is yourself.
Regardless, it is clear that you and I are not going to agree on a few points, but agree in others:
- Cheating is wrong, agreed.
- FFG Made an initially poor warning. Partially agreed, but can understand their initial warning and glad they increased the severity.
Points we disagree on:
- That incident that could be accidental be treated as cheating at premier level events. While I despise the idea of cheating...is it worth innocent mistakes causing people to be thrown out of an event they paid hundreds possibly thousands of dollars to attend. I'm sorry but it's this kind of absolute nature that made me stop playing competitively.
- How FFG apparently handled the situation. I think they were put in an awkward spot that could have been bad for them PR wise and made a call. I don't think they were incorrect in their call either since all I have is the video and nothing else. I didn't speak to the players, investigate the matter etc.
- A community's 'job'. A community is about discussion, not spouting rhetoric and making demands of a company on a public stage. If you have a problem with what FFG did, send them an e-mail, write to them, call their office. Having these kinds of toxic discussions publically on forums just causes division, arguments and in the long run further harm the game.
Also, this is probably a pointless endeavour of mine, but can you stop using the term 'white knight' just because someone disagrees with you. Labelling someone doesn't encourage discussion, it shuts down discussion by dismissing them. It's a personal attack that lends nothing to the discussion at hand.
White knights?
2 hours ago, BobbyM said:YES, this directly affects ME. Understand, how FFG handles their biggest tournament sets a precedence on how all other tournaments are handled.
1. I have lost entire competitive tournaments for far, far, far less. I explained the situation, the TO said, "NO." I lost the whole thing WITHOUT arguing because I had indeed made a rules mistake.
2. I had a person in one game fly their Falcon off their board and on to mine, we all laughed it up and decided that since he is new he won't lose his Falcon, he can have it back on his board but it gets a stress token.
3. know people who have been ejected from tournaments for a list typo, and they haven't complained because those are the rules.
This person cheated, was caught, and still got to advance to the next day. This affects me personally as a player and as an X-Wing events organizer. This can potentially set a precedent that cheating and bending the rules is OK as long as you are a paying customer. Dear FFG, I have lost competitive tournaments for significantly smaller honest infractions and I know people who have been booted from tournaments for less.
By not enforcing their own rules, FFG has diminished previous tournaments and tournament organizers that have done their best to run fair events. Yes, this does affect me personally.
Thank you FFG moderators for weighing in on the issue in this forum. I know that the majority of your team is not at the tournament and there is little you can do, however, if you want to organize grand tournaments you need to have judges and be willing to enforce the rules. What happened here is a mistake that has marred on overall great event.
FFGs response, IMO, is the correct one. Get all the facts then make a fair decision. Your posts make it sound like FFG has done everything they are going to do. If left to you and some of the other posters here, Parker would've received a summary execution and hung from the trusses in the game hall as a warning to others.
Previously I said I mostly agreed with the first three points you mentioned but not with Number 4, about shaming Parker. Imagine for a minute you find yourself in a similar situation. The reason isn't important, according to you, so you're labeled a cheater. Your picture is taken, upgrades made and distributed on the web, threads calling for your head on a pike resound. Then there are certain individuals that make it their crusade to shame you. They cry that the judge doesn't have the ball's to do what's right! The game is being ruined! And YADDA YADDA YADDA. All of this happens before a final decision is handed down. Wouldn't you like to have your side heard before you get tarred and feathered? Oh right, reasons don't matter.
As I said before, we're not privy to to discussions between the Marshal, judges and the affected players. Two of the three situations you mentioned above had serious consequences but those infractions pale in comparison to cheating and because it's a more serious offense should require more deliberation. A knee-jerk expulsion and a DNF is not the way to handle it.
45 minutes ago, Marinealver said:Wow 17 pages. So how many more pages will be tacked on to this thread?
It's about 10+ over what it should've been.
1 minute ago, Stoneface said:It's about 10+ over what it should've been.
So I guess we could expect another 10 more
Well yeah this topic is getting tiresome. The results are out and that guy is no where to be found in the top results so no need to carry this on. However it was a significant event and it will receive some more commentary on all the after worlds reports such as the podcasts, blogs, even casual conversation at next week's X-wing night. The damage was done.
2 minutes ago, Stoneface said:FFGs response, IMO, is the correct one. Get all the facts then make a fair decision. Your posts make it sound like FFG has done everything they are going to do. If left to you and some of the other posters here, Parker would've received a summary execution and hung from the trusses in the game hall as a warning to others.
Previously I said I mostly agreed with the first three points you mentioned but not with Number 4, about shaming Parker. Imagine for a minute you find yourself in a similar situation. The reason isn't important, according to you, so you're labeled a cheater. Your picture is taken, upgrades made and distributed on the web, threads calling for your head on a pike resound. Then there are certain individuals that make it their crusade to shame you. They cry that the judge doesn't have the ball's to do what's right! The game is being ruined! And YADDA YADDA YADDA. All of this happens before a final decision is handed down. Wouldn't you like to have your side heard before you get tarred and feathered? Oh right, reasons don't matter.
As I said before, we're not privy to to discussions between the Marshal, judges and the affected players. Two of the three situations you mentioned above had serious consequences but those infractions pale in comparison to cheating and because it's a more serious offense should require more deliberation. A knee-jerk expulsion and a DNF is not the way to handle it.
Another White Knight takes up the cause. White knights such as this guy are very good at exaggeration and strawman arguments. I have not read that anyone has threatened any bodily harm to the cheating player on this forum. White Knights often try to make the cheater look like the victim. Its very sad for the White Knight.
The community certainly should point out misbehaviour especially when we, as the community, think the response by FFG is not proportional to the cheating that was witnessed by the community.
The community has made up their minds by the seeing the video evidence. What is said behind closed doors is inconsequential to the ONLY evidence that matters. Pandering to cheaters is just unacceptable; and I think that is what the community is outraged about.