How would you rank the forms (in descending order of overall power)?

My ranking goes like this:

1. Ataru: Saber swarm makes mincemeat out of enemies. Advantage from Hawkbat can be used to crit, activate saber swarm, or even recover strain if you're running low. You also have access to both Parry and Reflect in this tree, which means defensive versatility.

2. Niman: The Force Rating pushes this one into the #2 slot for me. The only way to buff your saber skills without skipping a chance to advance your FR. Force Assault is fairly worthless, but Draw Closer is great--it means you'll never miss an attack once your FR gets above 3 or so, and with the high damage bonus from the successes you can punch through cortosis armor. Good defensive talents in this tree as well.

3. Shien: This is a close contest with Makashi, but Shien is more versatile, since it has both Parry and Reflect. Disrupting Strike is very good in one-on-one combat; you can really shut your opponent out of the fight.

4. Makashi: Brutal for one-on-one lightsaber battles, but this tree suffers from lack of versatility. You can knock someone out real fast from strain with these talents, and the critical hits from Makashi Finish are crippling with a high FR. Resist Disarm is probably the most useful 5-point talent in the book.

5. Soresu: Good for tanking. But this is a game that rewards offense over defense, so Soresu is slightly less powerful than some of the other forms (but only slightly).

6. Shii-Cho: No Reflect, and no special attack talent that lets you add Force dice to your lightsaber attacks. The bottom row of 25-point talents is the worst of any lightsaber tree (Parry and Center of Being??). Don't get me wrong, there are some nice talents in this tree, but it's just not much of a game-changer compared with the other five.

What's your ranking?

I think the question is limiting as in it excludes specs like sentry, armorer etc,... a 2 spec niman-disciple sentry is the current only way to get a well rounded movie capable Jedi at the same time non force sensitives mature... with those 2 specs you have force rating 3 (including the career), 2 dedication, 3 parry, 5 reflect, improved reflect, 2 defensive training, niman-technique and constant vigilance both key off of willpower, saber throw, improved same throw, etc.

By the way niman-technique is a leading reason to take niman disciple... using willpower for lights aberration attacks is huge, because willpower is the starting strain granting attribute, it covers initiative, fear checks, most force powers and defending against most force powers.

As a third spec i'd recommend either force sensitive emergent (dedication, force rating, force of will, which once per game session lets you use your crazy high willpower for any check), or martial artist, unarmed parry (developer max brooke said you just need 1 free hand to use it, and that means you'really paying 2 strain instead of 3 to use parry), and 2 more ranks of parry (bringing you to a total of 5), overbalance (overbalance synergies nicely with the consular's 2 ranks of defensive training and the sense force power defense double upgrade) and all of that is easy to get to on the left side of the tree) i think 2 toughened and 2 grit. By the way it's possible to get "steely nerves" (spend a destiny point to protect willpower and presence against crits) and dodge as "scar talents" (last 2 pages of forged in battle), dodge doesn't require a maneuver to activate and would change your 2 red 2 black defense against melee attacks to 2 red, 1 purple, 2 black, adding the extra die greatly improves your chances of activating overbalance.

My rating?

1) Ataru: By far the most powerful offensive form, strain is a serious issue, but a combination of a commonly used stat (e.g: with three noted exceptions, pretty much all but 3 characters in 21 PC's past and present have had 3 in agility) and it's signature traits being accessed really quickly makes it both a well developed and overwhelming tree. Linked is a incredibly powerful tool and in combination with Hawkbat is significantly ahead on sheer damage without sacrificing narrative flexibility, and being able to engage from short is incredibly efficient . Balance really seals the deal as an outstanding class. The only thing I would say against it is this is one of those trees that really needs a healthy force rating to make the best of half of it's keystone talents, that and sentry can get them for much cheaper. I would definitely say that this tree is the least fair, it's only issue being the lower soak.

2) Niman: A less commonly used stat but both a narratively strong tree. It can manipulate charatcters and is the only dedicated lightsaber tree to receive lightsabers. Defensive training is nice to have and a lot of good perks. It's not a strong combat tree and contains no dedication, but it is balanced.

3) Shi-Cho Is a less exciting tree but potentially one of the strongest. a naturally high brawn makes having ranks of reflect less important and Sallack sweep, natural blade master and quick draw all very deadly. The last row of talents are fairly lack luster but for all it's lack of flare it is a efficient tree that is capable of shredding groups of characters, unless your DM is the kind of chap who requires you to move manually to each group (making sweep less consistant), in which case I would rate this tree much lower. If paired with armourier and the like I could see this rising, and part of the reason I rate it as equal to Makashi is this tree is equally applicable to melee combat, meaning the character has the most agency to operate without a lightsaber, excluding ataru users.

4) Makashi: Outstanding dueling tree. My only complaint against it is it lacks the grunt of the other more damaging trees, but being able to recover strain rapidly makes this one incredible. I only rate it lower because unlike Shi-Cho it is unlikely the character would have the brawn to accomidate the lack of reflect.

5) Shien: It's alright. I don't have anything against it particularly, I've just not been inspired by it. Brutal avalance is good. The improved talents are condictional however and it takes some time to get to the real meat of the tree. Soresus

6) Soresu: I'm not saying this tree is bad, but it requires a very different mentality. It's robust but it isn't exciting. I also rate the improved talents fairly low because they are naturally very conditional without some serious building toward. The fact that it's intelligence govened in a career set that doesn't value intelligence strikes me as really odd. I really feel will might have been better fit for this and swapped int with Niman. As is it's the tree I'm least excited about, though it is the endurance form.

Of course, more trees make it interesting. I still think Ataru is the best of the pile though; literally any tree that would enhance any of the other trees would enhance it better. Extra soak? Awesome. Force rating? How many advances can I generate from hawk-bat? E.c.t.

8 hours ago, LordBritish said:

My rating?

1) Ataru: By far the most powerful offensive form, strain is a serious issue, but a combination of a commonly used stat (e.g: with three noted exceptions, pretty much all but 3 characters in 21 PC's past and present have had 3 in agility) and it's signature traits being accessed really quickly makes it both a well developed and overwhelming tree. Linked is a incredibly powerful tool and in combination with Hawkbat is significantly ahead on sheer damage without sacrificing narrative flexibility, and being able to engage from short is incredibly efficient . Balance really seals the deal as an outstanding class. The only thing I would say against it is this is one of those trees that really needs a healthy force rating to make the best of half of it's keystone talents, that and sentry can get them for much cheaper. I would definitely say that this tree is the least fair, it's only issue being the lower soak.

2) Niman: A less commonly used stat but both a narratively strong tree. It can manipulate charatcters and is the only dedicated lightsaber tree to receive lightsabers. Defensive training is nice to have and a lot of good perks. It's not a strong combat tree and contains no dedication, but it is balanced.

3) Shi-Cho Is a less exciting tree but potentially one of the strongest. a naturally high brawn makes having ranks of reflect less important and Sallack sweep, natural blade master and quick draw all very deadly. The last row of talents are fairly lack luster but for all it's lack of flare it is a efficient tree that is capable of shredding groups of characters, unless your DM is the kind of chap who requires you to move manually to each group (making sweep less consistant), in which case I would rate this tree much lower. If paired with armourier and the like I could see this rising, and part of the reason I rate it as equal to Makashi is this tree is equally applicable to melee combat, meaning the character has the most agency to operate without a lightsaber, excluding ataru users.

4) Makashi: Outstanding dueling tree. My only complaint against it is it lacks the grunt of the other more damaging trees, but being able to recover strain rapidly makes this one incredible. I only rate it lower because unlike Shi-Cho it is unlikely the character would have the brawn to accomidate the lack of reflect.

5) Shien: It's alright. I don't have anything against it particularly, I've just not been inspired by it. Brutal avalance is good. The improved talents are condictional however and it takes some time to get to the real meat of the tree. Soresus

6) Soresu: I'm not saying this tree is bad, but it requires a very different mentality. It's robust but it isn't exciting. I also rate the improved talents fairly low because they are naturally very conditional without some serious building toward. The fact that it's intelligence govened in a career set that doesn't value intelligence strikes me as really odd. I really feel will might have been better fit for this and swapped int with Niman. As is it's the tree I'm least excited about, though it is the endurance form.

Of course, more trees make it interesting. I still think Ataru is the best of the pile though; literally any tree that would enhance any of the other trees would enhance it better. Extra soak? Awesome. Force rating? How many advances can I generate from hawk-bat? E.c.t.

If you can get to force rating three and buy protect (with mastery) Soresu becomes a lot more interesting you can trigger improved parry and improved reflect a lot more often because of your increased defense from protect, and can often end up triggering both protect mastery and improved reflect or parry for increased damage output, if you can raise your FR high enough to consistently trigger protect with just white pips you can end up being able to absorb over 30 dmg against every attack against you , and every time you reduce the damage to zero you can just flip it right back to them. Ultimately your damage output is much greater than every style.

Soak for an armorer /protector/Soresu would be well over 10 your parry would be able to avoid another 8 dmg for 1 strain, reflect the same for 3 strain , you could parry or reflect an engaged ally's incoming attacks. For 2 white pips you could avoid your willpower + success on discipline roll damage against energy attacks , while adding defence equal to advantage rolled, another pip can a/ add all attacks to protect , b/ add another engaged player to the effect c/ add 4 more damage to avoidance.

So for 3 pips you would be talking , avoiding 22 dmg if you don't parry or reflect and another 8 if you did. You could add 4 dmg per pip on top of that. So if someone hits you for 28 dmg you just parry/reflect and because you drop their damage to zero you get 28 dmg on them.

This can be done with any specs , but the guardian specs give you more added protection, and if an attack does get through, your danger is getting a crit landing on you however for 3 strain armorer has that covered. Also Guardian career so far is the only spec that has 3 lightsaber specializations, as armorer and protector add hybrids like the sentry.

Cool build!

6 hours ago, syrath said:

If you can get to force rating three and buy protect (with mastery) Soresu becomes a lot more interesting you can trigger improved parry and improved reflect a lot more often because of your increased defense from protect, and can often end up triggering both protect mastery and improved reflect or parry for increased damage output, if you can raise your FR high enough to consistently trigger protect with just white pips you can end up being able to absorb over 30 dmg against every attack against you , and every time you reduce the damage to zero you can just flip it right back to them. Ultimately your damage output is much greater than every style.

Soak for an armorer /protector/Soresu would be well over 10 your parry would be able to avoid another 8 dmg for 1 strain, reflect the same for 3 strain , you could parry or reflect an engaged ally's incoming attacks. For 2 white pips you could avoid your willpower + success on discipline roll damage against energy attacks , while adding defence equal to advantage rolled, another pip can a/ add all attacks to protect , b/ add another engaged player to the effect c/ add 4 more damage to avoidance.

So for 3 pips you would be talking , avoiding 22 dmg if you don't parry or reflect and another 8 if you did. You could add 4 dmg per pip on top of that. So if someone hits you for 28 dmg you just parry/reflect and because you drop their damage to zero you get 28 dmg on them.

This can be done with any specs , but the guardian specs give you more added protection, and if an attack does get through, your danger is getting a crit landing on you however for 3 strain armorer has that covered. Also Guardian career so far is the only spec that has 3 lightsaber specializations, as armorer and protector add hybrids like the sentry.

Wouldn't it make more sense to drop protector from that build and add niman disciple instead?

In the trade you pick up 2 more ranks of parry and reflect, 2 ranks of defensive training, you gain sum djem, you lose I rank of center of being but get improved center of being which lets you use center of being as an incidental. You also lose one rank of toughened and grit and you lose force protection but that cost strain every round and you have to be using before you get hit (can't use it as an incidental), it also requires you to commit force dice which would make using protect harder

54 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:

Wouldn't it make more sense to drop protector from that build and add niman disciple instead?

In the trade you pick up 2 more ranks of parry and reflect, 2 ranks of defensive training, you gain sum djem, you lose I rank of center of being but get improved center of being which lets you use center of being as an incidental. You also lose one rank of toughened and grit and you lose force protection but that cost strain every round and you have to be using before you get hit (can't use it as an incidental), it also requires you to commit force dice which would make using protect harder

yeah except you lose the ability to parry or reflect an attack to an engaged ally, but as I said the idea of protect also works with the other saber styles , but it combines so well with the guardians because of their ability to mitigate damage , although less so with the peacekeeper / warleader and warden.

15 minutes ago, syrath said:

yeah except you lose the ability to parry or reflect an attack to an engaged ally, but as I said the idea of protect also works with the other saber styles , but it combines so well with the guardians because of their ability to mitigate damage , although less so with the peacekeeper / warleader and warden.

helping out the party is good as long as it doesn't take away the opportunity for other players to use their talents... if you've got a bunch of lightsaber wielders in the party and you're the best at parry/reflect and you're using the circle of shelter, then effectively the other players don't get much use out of their talents or you don't get to use circle of shelter and that talent is pretty much the only reason to take protector over niman disciple. So from a being-useful-without-stealing-the-other-players'-spotlight perspective I really don't like that talent/specialization. For a party without any other jedi in it (a mixed FaD, AoR, EotE game) it sort of make sense but you still have to be careful about not always saving the **whole** party (taking more than your share of the spotlight), I prefer talents that "passively" make the other party members better (e.g. add dice to THEIR rolls or put setback dice on incoming attacks against them) because it leaves the attention on them instead of taking it for yourself with an active "parry" or "reflect." I get that this is a "play style" **preference** as in there isn't a right or wrong answer, I'm just trying to explain why i personally don't put much value in that particular talent.

Actually it can set up some pretty good combos, because protect can also be used to help allies in range, you have one player set up, for all out offense (lets call him Anakin) and one set for defense (lets call him Obi Wan) you can set up a good team without stealing each others thunder, it allows the offensive player to avoid spending strain actions and maneuvers on defnse and allows the defender to concentrate on protecting the group. From what you say using unmatched heroism twice per game would be stealing the other players thunder also, since most games of 6 encounters are unlikely to have more than 2 encounters that were combat the Guardian would be defending the group in a similar and much cheaper way, from an xp stand point, and still parrying/reflecting the blows and absorbing the hits.

The big thing about protect is that you need a lot of pips to get it working for you it's 2 just to trigger (btw you wouldnt use force protection because of the need to commit dice which hurts your protect roll), its going to cost another pip to get it working on all types of damage, it takes another two to be able to reflect the damage back , so all in we are talking 5 pips here and , here is the major problem with it, it will only work against the first landed attack that it is applicable for unless you use all white pips. Even with the best FR either build can get (3 FWIW), that's unlikely so unless you rolled all white with 2 of them doubles, you wont get to do this often, but would mostly protect yourself without reflecting damage, but this is where improved reflect and parry come in , as since you arent attacking these are your main damage doers.

it's not an invincible build since the "combo" itself is hard to pull off , but if you did get the magic 5 or 6 white pips you will be able to be awesome for a round, unless your opponents stopped attacking, which they may do if they see their damage return to them.

If you get your force rating up higher so thst you can consistently protect better , then its a much more likely proposition, but then if you have thst kind of FR everyone is going to be some kind of awesome.

I'm the gm of 6 players at around 580 earned xp, and all of my players have avoided taking signature abilities so that they don't steal the thunder/spotlight too much

28 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:

I'm the gm of 6 players at around 580 earned xp, and all of my players have avoided taking signature abilities so that they don't steal the thunder/spotlight too much

My point still stands protect requires a lot of luck for you to be able to pull off protecting yourself or another for more than just the next attack, unmatched heroism allows you to be able to do it much easier, while the attack and parry ability of the protector is able to work all the time protect does not and it does not have fo step on the toes of other players especially if you plan for it.

Circle of Shelter has it's place in the game even if the person you are protecting is a lightsaber user, examples - the damage is too great dor the original target to parry all damage, then the protector does his job and jumps in front to protect. The attacker is getting wearied and is suffering strain burn out so the protector steps in to help them recover, the attacker is going balls out offense relying on the defender to protect them (me and a fellow player are working of a synergistic pairing of aggressor/shicho and warden/protector, where im bodyguarding him in combat both of us plan to have fearsome , so I can mess with the movement of his targets through no escape, as well as my own) , since we fight side by side I can also use the grapple maneuver to help stop them getting away while he slices and dices, Tirade is my main weapon, with fists as backup).

Niman is the better mechanically for a player worried about his own protection, but the one thing about the whole guardian career that is important is that they all look after the protection of others, especially their allies. Protector is perhaps the most obvious about it but they all do it to some extent and some to a greater degree. Strangely the Soresu Defender is the most selfish of all the guardians as it is all about protecting one's self.

Armorer can make gear for the group

Warden protects by debuffing the opponents of the group

Protector is the bodyguard for the group

Warleader directs combat so that everyone is where they need to be and ensuring they support each other

Peacekeeper is the leader in the more traditional sense, and allows them to amek the best of the moment

Soresu is the selfish bar steward who thinks only of himself.... actually it combines well with all of the above to enable the player to get the best out of the more defensive of the above, esp armorer and protector.

I haven't tried all the trees! But...

Combine Shii-Cho and Niman. And you get 3 black die defense for your character.

It's great! ULTIMATE DODGE MACHINE! Or just a guy who manipulates force so that guns shoot BIT to the side and hits become near misses...

28 minutes ago, SuperArppis said:

I haven't tried all the trees! But...

Combine Shii-Cho and Niman. And you get 3 black die defense for your character.

It's great! ULTIMATE DODGE MACHINE! Or just a guy who manipulates force so that guns shoot BIT to the side and hits become near misses...

The defensive training talent only works against melee attacks

Getting back on topic, here is how I would rank them.

Ataru Striker

Shi Cho

Soresu

Niman

Makashi

Sentry

Shien

Armorer

Protector

I'm interesting in seeing what the arbiter brings. Note that I would rate them differently depending on the background. For example I may put Niman at the top for many different settings, but in an edge setting I might prefer to have shein or sentry if up close combat happens less often.

Was surprised to see how little love Soresu was getting in general in this thread.

Ive found it's very easy to damage in this system/with a Lightsaber, but much harder to stay conscious to do it. And Soresu has been awesome towards that end. Especially since you can take all the good stuff from it without taking Soresu technique, just a little round-about way,

1. Shien is my new favourite, combined with a Cortosis Shield and a Shoto with the Sense power you can pile up the "you can't hit me" dice. Increasing Force Rating requires a second spec, but fortunately Sentry has a lot to offer.

2. Makasi is great, if you can hit multiple times in a round and Crit with each hit. Increasing FR is again hard, but the Mystic book could provide interesting opportunities there beyond the Seer.

3. Ataru is just plain fun, so much jumping around, so many hits on enemies, it's great for Minion mowing.

4. Armourer. Supreme Armour Master is all I have to say. But crafting Armour and Lightsabers is powerful, combine with Soresu for some serious stopping power.

5. Sentry. I love this spec but it needs a huge amount of xp to capitalise on its core talents.

6. Niman Soresu and Shi-Cho. Three very nice specs, but just not my cup of tea, they all do well as second specs in my personal taste.

7. Protector. Not really a Lightsaber spec, it's still handy if looking after your buddies is your shtick.

Honorable Mention goes to Executioner, Hunters Quarry, Marked for Death and Essential Kill all work very well with a Saber even if it isn't a career skill

18 hours ago, EliasWindrider said:

The defensive training talent only works against melee attacks

If it doesn't specify it to be only vs melee, it is universal.

Or does it? I didn't spot any of the kind being said there...

EDIT: Ahhh... ok, I can see now in the defensive weapon quality. That's too bad.

19 hours ago, SuperArppis said:

I haven't tried all the trees! But...

Combine Shii-Cho and Niman. And you get 3 black die defense for your character.

It's great! ULTIMATE DODGE MACHINE! Or just a guy who manipulates force so that guns shoot BIT to the side and hits become near misses...

I've got a PC with that combo, and those three black dice tend to help trigger his Improved Parry talent. And when you've got a lightsaber that does a base 9 damage per hit, that tends to make melee fights a much more dangerous prospect for the bad guys. The fact you get to pile on the ranks of Parry in addition to snagging Reflect doesn't hurt either; after all, having 7 ranks of Parry is nothing to sneeze at, and pretty much makes you immune to the majority of melee weapons.

2 hours ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

I've got a PC with that combo, and those three black dice tend to help trigger his Improved Parry talent. And when you've got a lightsaber that does a base 9 damage per hit, that tends to make melee fights a much more dangerous prospect for the bad guys. The fact you get to pile on the ranks of Parry in addition to snagging Reflect doesn't hurt either; after all, having 7 ranks of Parry is nothing to sneeze at, and pretty much makes you immune to the majority of melee weapons.

You know why I specced this? Because the inquisitor after my character uses pressure point attacks. And because they ignore parry, my character was at disadvantage against him. He has a lot of ranks in parry, but it did him no good. So he reasoned he needed something else to defeat the inquisitor. So he was actually inspired by this Zabrak mercenary and the way she fought. She moves like water. So my character decided to add force to that and telekinesis. So he is kind of using Niman atm, but it's mostly something he improvises as a combat style to be able to avoid the pressure point attacks!

It's always great when there is a ingame reason for character to start training in certain direction.

I would like to note that force assault is not worthless at all. It might be a bit of a niche use, but combined with a Dantari crystal and draw closer is quite useful.
The jist is to target someone in short or medium range, then use the pips to recover strain if you get at least 3 adv or triumph so you will miss because the target is not engaged, then you activate force assault to use a move as maneuver. So you recovered some free strain and maybe some advantage and you get to attack or do soemthing else with you Move power. One of the few ways to get a chance to roll to attack twice in a turn, and you can use it fairly often.

I don't think the target being out of range counts as a miss. Rolling more failures than successes counts as a miss. Otherwise you could trigger suppressing fire against people at extreme range with a gaffi stick, because hey, my attacks keep failing, so I get to activate on miss powers, right?

4 minutes ago, Aetrion said:

I don't think the target being out of range counts as a miss. Rolling more failures than successes counts as a miss. Otherwise you could trigger suppressing fire against people at extreme range with a gaffi stick, because hey, my attacks keep failing, so I get to activate on miss powers, right?

Yep, the target must be within range of the ability to initiate the attack. I think what blackice is saying is that if the target doesn't end Engaged with the acting character then even if the Skill Check was successful they can't actually strike the target.

Yea, but what he's saying is that he's using Draw Closer with a Dantari crystal, spends all of the force pips generated on strain recovery, then claims the attack missed because the target wasn't drawn into range since he didn't spend the pips to activate draw closer, but still spends 3 advantage from the attack roll to activate Force Assault, to then use Move as a maneuver to make his actual attack, after basically just rolling Force Dice for free strain.

That is simply a ridiculous interpretation of the rules.

51 minutes ago, Aetrion said:

Yea, but what he's saying is that he's using Draw Closer with a Dantari crystal, spends all of the force pips generated on strain recovery, then claims the attack missed because the target wasn't drawn into range since he didn't spend the pips to activate draw closer, but still spends 3 advantage from the attack roll to activate Force Assault, to then use Move as a maneuver to make his actual attack, after basically just rolling Force Dice for free strain.

That is simply a ridiculous interpretation of the rules.

Ahh, I missed that the Skill Check still succeeded, I thought he was suggesting doing that when the attack failed.

If he says do it on a successful check that's out of the question.

In the end you would be better spending the Advantage on recovering Strain, a Force Point on drawing the target too you, another on the Dantari and actually hitting your opponent.

I do like the cinematic nature of drawing your target to you, missing then flinging them at a wall in frustration!

Well the long description of the talent clearly states that if the target is not at engaged the attack misses automatically, wich is the requirement specified for it to activate force assault. It doesn't say unsuccessful check, it says missing an oponent with a combat check. You still need advantage/triumph, so it's not like it works everytime. The dantari thing is just the trick to get something out of it. But I think it's way within the spirit that if you don't get enough pips on the draw closer you can activate force assault. I feel that is that the talent bringing some insurance when you try to use draw closer at low force ratings is well within the intent. I mean it's a 25 point talent, is it that bad that 2 expensive talents have some synergy if used with a certain item, considering hawbat and saber swarm exist?