JCHendee said:

Caxton is already up at the downloads section of Talisman Island, I was just keen to sort him out with the newest version of Windlass as I have yet to put that on the page.

Thank you all so much for all of the help.

I don't have Photoshop but I think GIMP is free? If there is a major learning curve to it, like Photoshop, I am not sure when Ill have the time to get any good at it.

Ill have to see about posting up my VERY basic and colourful mock up of the board, and I can provide some art direction if anyone is so inclined.

Sounds fine, T. I think you've got everyone's attention.

Here are the official rules. If any one sees any issues let me know.

Design notes

1) The Netherworld needs to be difficult in terms of cards and ability to leave since the players likely have not gotten here until later in the game and I don’t want it to be too easy to get back or else killing other players doesn’t have a whole lot of point. I still want it to be something bad to die instead of something that players are hoping for.
2) Alignment must play a larger role since how you were in life should affect what your afterlife is like.
3) I wanted to add a Graveyard, but since the Outer Region already has one it seemed redundant.
4) I only added the ability to get to the Netherworld at the Enchantress because otherwise the board wouldn’t get played very much, and players that want to play it shouldn’t have to try to get killed to do it.
5) The board has a symmetrical/circular look and feel because I wanted to give the impression of going around in circles or spiraling out of control/lost in a maze.
6) Rolling a 6 on the Hall of Heroes bears watching. It seems like fun, but in practice it might just be annoying if you are the victim of it.

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The Lore

The Netherworld is a place trapped between the realms of life and death. Creatures trapped in torment and sadness, lost in madness or burning for revenge long to return to life and cannot let go of their connection to the mortal Realm. Spirits travel this damned dimension and creatures have been lured from the edge of madness to prey on the poor souls that echo through this twisted eternity. Reality has little meaning in this place and it is easy to lose sight of your sanity as you drift from place to place.

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The Rules

1) There are only three ways to get to The Netherworld. If a character dies, they leave all of their items, followers and gold on the square that they died on, and then appear at The Crossroads square on The Netherworld board. They retain the strength, craft and fate they had when they died, and have only 1 life. A player can open a portal to The Netherworld by going to the Enchantress, paying her 2 life and rolling under their craft on two dice. They move to The Crossroads and then end their turn. A player may be summoned to fight a legendary battle against a fallen enemy in the Hall of Heroes.

2) While a player is in The Netherworld, if a player loses their last life, they are out of the game.

3) If a player ever starts their turn with 4 lives, they must move from The Netherworld to a space in the land of the living depending on their Alignment as their move. Good Characters appear at the Chapel, Evil Characters at the Graveyard, and Neutral Characters at the Ruins. If no one has landed where you died in the Realm, you may choose to appear there instead and claim your legacy.

4) If a player achieves the Crown of Command, all players in The Netherworld lose the game.

5) You can only move in one direction in The Netherworld. State which way you want to travel and continue in that direction until you land on The Crossroads or a Nether Rift, then you may pick a different direction if you wish.

6) Gold is of no use in the Netherworld. Evil Characters barter with Souls. Each trophy they have is worth one soul. Good Characters barter with their Fate. Neutral Characters may barter in either Souls or Fate.

7) The Netherworld is not mandatory. If a Character dies they can choose to either go to the Crossroads, or simply start a new Character as normal.

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The Board

The Crossroads:

Lore - The Crossroads is the entry point to this desolate wasteland. Spirits are often seen drifting back and forth, desperately searching for the way out or wandering aimlessly.

Rules - All players entering The Netherworld start on this square. When a player goes to start their turn from this spot, they must state which direction they want to move in. They must continue in this direction until they land on The Crossroads or a Nether Rift.

The Paths of the Damned

Lore – The Paths of the Damned cut a ragged trail through the cold, dead landscape and connect the places of loss and pain that have surfaced out of the darkness.

Rules – Characters may only move one space at a time on the Paths of the Damned. If your move would carry you past the first Path of the Damned space, you must stop your move here.

Nether Rifts

Lore – Nether Rifts are weak points between the dimensions that constantly pull entities from their realities and trap them in the Netherworld, usually forever.

Rules - always draw card here, regardless of the number of cards. When you start your turn on a Nether Rift, you may state which direction you are going in before you roll.

The Gallows:

Lore – The Gallows is a hell for all of the murderers and prisoners that have met their ends at the hands of justice, or served this death to the people they deemed to deserve it.

Rules - Roll a d6 to see what happens:

1) You are hung for your crimes, just or unjust. Lose one life.
2) A follower of yours is hung. Discard one at random.
3) You must fight the Executioner Strength 7.
4) Make bail. Pay 1 Soul or Fate. If you cannot, you must remain on the Gallows for your next turn and roll again.
5) Escape! – Move to any space in the Netherworld as your next move.
6) Freed! – Heal to 4 lives and you may move to any Outer Region space of your choice as your next move

Hall of Heroes

Lore - The Hall of Heroes stands as a giant coliseum for all that have died for valor, or for the sport of others. Giant statues of faceless heroes act as stony witnesses to the evils of conquerors.

Rules - Roll a d6 to see what happens:

1) Lose all Fate.
2) Battle a copy of yourself. Whatever you’re total strength or craft is the copy has the same.
3) Discard all trophies.
4) Gain 1 Fate.
5) Gain 2 Fate.
6) Summon a player from any region or board, other than the Inner, to fight you. If you win then the losing player must stay in The Netherworld and you move to the space that they were at. If they win they may take a life, fate, trophy or object of their choice and teleport back to the space they were on.

The Boatman

Lore – The Boatman waits silently for any souls that have managed to meet his price. He strokes through the ether, creaking bones on creaking wood, gathering the souls of the defeated or stealing the fates of those that would seek to leave the Netherworld.

Rules - The Boatman will ferry you back to the world of the living to any space in the Outer Region provided that you have at least one life and pay his fee of 3 Souls/Fate.

Necropolis

Lore – The Necropolis is a crumbling, foreboding city of the dead that is different for everyone that visits it. Some see ghosts drifting through shattered ruins while others see a city of demons feeding on the lesser creatures of the Netherworld for food and sport. A few powerful demons have set up shop here to offer the hope of escape from the Netherworld. Whatever the vision, it is as close to a respite as any will find in this accursed land.

Rules - There are a number of useful services available here:

1) Soul Trader: you may sell a follower into slavery. Leave the follower here and take 1 Fate. Any player may buy a follower that is on this space at the cost of 2 Fate/Trophies.
2) Dark Priest: discard a follower to take another follower from the discard pile and gain control of it.
3) Gatekeeper: trade in a Strength, Craft, Trophy or Fate for a Life.

The Battlefield

Lore – The Battlefield is a testament to the lives that have been destroyed by war. Ghostly battles are constantly raging here. The screams of the dying echo across the barren wasteland, followed by war cries and the thunder of hooves of long dead mounts. It is a feeding ground for all creatures that leech off the memories of death and pain.

Rules - Roll a die and subtract the number of cards that are already on this place to see how many cards you draw when you land here.

I haven't been able to post it on the web yet, but here is a lovely ascii representation of the board:

Nether Rift
/ |
Battlefield | Necropolis
/ PotD
Valley of the Dead | Forest of Nightmares
/ PotD
/ |
Nether Rift -PotD-PotD-The Crossroads -PotD-PotD Nether Rift
| /
PotD /
Forest of Nightmaes | Valley the Dead
PotD /
Hall of Heroes | The Gallows
| /
Nether Rift

PotD - Paths of the Damned

Looks like crap I know but hey.

Overall, the concept looks sound, but certain parts seem a little too convoluted. There are also some misconceptions, but that may only bother me and no one else.

Once we strip away modern monotheism's collective demonization of other world mythologies and ideologies, a netherworld is fully what you are representing here. Below are some notes and notions; I'm not telling you to change anything.

Talismania said:

There should also be another risk, whether players enter there by choice or via death. A netherworld is actually "alignment null" for lack of a better term. It is hinterland between the world of the living and all realms of final destination for the dead. So there should definitely be a risk of the living ending up being sent off to their final realm as if they'd died for real, though they shouldn't have quite as many restrictions on getting out as the truly dead do. That's probably already built in, considering the requirement on "Lives" you stated previously for the dead to get out.

Talismania said:

I wouldn't say large, but rather about the same as in the main board and Adventure deck... but with one potential exception... the chance of being sent off to final rest reqardless of any other rule (such as for negative lives) that would end the characters chance to come back. For example, meeting a Stranger in the netherworld that is of divine origin and of one's own alignment might end up pulling one off to final rest and ending any chance to come back to the world of the Living.

EXAMPLE: ARCHANGEL: If you are good and have no lives, you are sent off to your final rest. The game is over for you. If you are Evil or Neutral, lose a life.

EXAMPLE: ARCHDEVIL: If you are evil and have no lives, you are sent off to your final rest. The game is over for you. If you Good or Neutral, lose a life.

EXAMPLE: TAIMH-SHI (Fay of Mortality/Death): If you are neutral and have no lives, you are sent off to your final rest. The game is over for you. If you Good or EVIL, lose a life.

Just some notions.

Talismania said:

I think the graveyard is the better notion. A graveyard is the final place of interment after life, so it is where the connection between the realm of the living and the hinterland of the dead truly exists in most all mythologies and ideologies throughout history. Many cultures (not just the Egyptians) also had concepts for a settlement (city, temple, etc.) of the dead. Just an alternative notion, as that of the "crossroads" in modern terms (and historical ones) is something entirely different.

A netherworld is the hinterland between life an enternal death. A crossroads is a metaphor for a point in time and space where those ultimate divine realms touch the world of the living, bypassing the hinterlands, the netherworld, etc. The modern concept of a crossroads used as place where witches and other evil doers raise spirits or one can risk running into the Devil at midnight under a blue moon, are actually demonizations of the early belief of a crossroads beyond sight of any civilization being a place where one can step across in the land(s) of Faerie (another modern term).

Talismania said:

The ulitmate shape need not be too much concern. It could be any shape so long as the paths your intend are still followed. So if fitting it around the main board is too much bother, you could make and independant board of any shape and even have something like and doubled-back horseshoe pattern if you wanted it to have a lot of spaces (see below)

__ __ __ __ __ __
| __ __ __ __ __ |
__ __ __ __ __ | |
| __ __ __ __ __ __ |

Talismania said:

Don't care for it at all... but that's just me. I'm still uncertain if movement is by a roll or one space at a time. If movement is by one space at a time, this space would a deal breaker for me as a player. It is too random (but then again, I don't like the slant that some spaces now have in 4ER). A legitimate land of the dead should not allow pulling another adventurer out of the land of the living; I think you would find some other players not liking this interruption to the standard play of the game.

The Lore

Talismania said:

Well, that's not true for actual mythology or how it is operating by your rules. It is a land of the dead, just not the land of any one dead's enternal rest. It would be better to somehow describe is as that hinterland of the restless dead, a place where all dead adventurers end up, for they are the most loath to relinquish their life's quest and will fight to come back if they can.

The rest of the description doesn't work for me either... too much mixing and blending of astral concepts of mental realms and hellish domains etc. But again, that's just me.

Talismania said:

All but the third one work for me.

Talismania said:

You mean a "living" character / adventurer, who has chosen to go there... right? You need to distinquish between "living" and "dead" in the rules, so players... I mean the characters / adventurers... know where certain rules will apply to those who went their willfully versus those who died (have no lives at all) and were sent there.

Talismania said:

Interesting, for the last part, though you need to clarify. Does "landed where you died" mean at any time after you died, or someone there when you come back? I think the latter is a better choice, since tracking if anyone has been there since you died will be too much fuss.

Talismania said:

Good. Avoids the hassle of someone on the CoC, with all other players "picked off" and having to wait and see if anyone escapes the netherworld. Especially since the mechanics of the Command Spell couldn't affect an adventurer already dead.

Talismania said:

Hmmm... a bit confusing, but with some arrows on the board crossing the borders between spaces to point out the two paths, it should be clearer visually.

Talismania said:

I would eliminate the Torphies as Souls thing and just say Trophies or Fate.

Talismania said:

Good. Choices that are in the control of the players are always good.

Talismania said:

Hmmm... just a notion... but what if the entry point in the figure 8 pattern you have below were the Necropolis? All dead adventurers arrive there first, though they wouldn't really be able to do anything there, having lost their possessions. And they might be loath to give up any tokens before they face the perils of the netherworld. Still, some might gamble and trade in some Strength and Craft in the hope getting out quicker, BUT....

Then make the Rifts the only place one can change direction AND the only place to get out of the netherworld once the dead have acquired enought lives. You could do the same for living adventures as well, requiring them to get back the lives they lost getting in an then also have to reach a Rift.

OPTION (just a notion): Upon reaching a Rift, roll a die. If you roll below your current count of Lives, you get out. (Might be too stiff, but its only a thought)

Talismania said:

Oooo... I'd get rid of this label right away. Not all coming to the netherworld are "damned".

Talismania said:

Okay, here are two problems. First, every space is automatically landed on, and some are ones I wouldn't want to play the way they are. Second, if moving one space at a time, then there is no way that a "move would carry you past the first" space on the path. The standard in most realms for Talisman is random movement; even in some past expansions that used a "realm" dice with a lower movement range, it was still rolled movement. Only the Inner Region (not "realm") so far has a one space movement rule. Random movement in the netherworld would be more appealing to most players, for it also allows the use of Fate by normal (versus alternative) rules to hopefully alter distance traveled and/or destination reached.

Talismania said:

And again, I suggest that these be the places by which the dead and living try to escape the netherworld.

Talismania said:

Thank you for the feedback. I'll give it a closer look when I get home tonight and do some more editing.

I did mean for the Characters to roll a die for movement still. I will clarify that.

I also did intend that once Characters were in the Netherworld, whether they got there alive or dead doesn't really matter, although after reading your comments I can see how that might cause problems not just flavorwise.

I intially had it that a Character could go into the negative lives, but I thought that just seemed to confusing.

I threw in the thing about a Character being able to go to the spot where they died when they leave the Netherworld as a fun way to get your stuff back if no one else had managed to grab it, but I agree that it isn't necessary and could be confusing (but he left a waterbottle....)

As for the Nether Rifts, it certainly makes sense flavourwise that they should be able to leave the Netherworld through them, but that wasn't the initial intention for the space. Technically the cards I have designed that might get drawn on that spot could allow them to get away.

i agree I should work the flavour a bit in regards to the lore sections. A little too much fire and brimstone and not so much just a purgatory type place. The cards themselves provide more function on the alignment of the individual.

I will comment more later and post a re-work asap.

Thanks again!

Ooops, looks like bad formatting in my post messed things up. Here's Talismania's last post in a more readable format.

Thank you for the feedback. I'll give it a closer look when I get home tonight and do some more editing.

I did mean for the Characters to roll a die for movement still. I will clarify that.

I also did intend that once Characters were in the Netherworld, whether they got there alive or dead doesn't really matter, although after reading your comments I can see how that might cause problems not just flavorwise.

I intially had it that a Character could go into the negative lives, but I thought that just seemed to confusing.

I threw in the thing about a Character being able to go to the spot where they died when they leave the Netherworld as a fun way to get your stuff back if no one else had managed to grab it, but I agree that it isn't necessary and could be confusing (but he left a waterbottle....)

As for the Nether Rifts, it certainly makes sense flavourwise that they should be able to leave the Netherworld through them, but that wasn't the initial intention for the space. Technically the cards I have designed that might get drawn on that spot could allow them to get away.

i agree I should work the flavour a bit in regards to the lore sections. A little too much fire and brimstone and not so much just a purgatory type place. The cards themselves provide more function on the alignment of the individual.

I will comment more later and post a re-work asap.

Thanks again!

Hi

I like the concept about the Netherworld. Legend and literature both have many examples of heroes clawing their way out of an afterlife or having to journey to some "realm of the dead" to rescue their loved one/best mate/goldfish.

Without meaning to sound too critical, I think your implementation is somewhat clumsy and over-complicated. The ideas are sound, I'm just not convinced.

However, not to be a negative nelly, I proffer some suggestions:

1. Simplify the board to a smaller number of spaces.

2. Require the "goal" to leave the "Underworld" is to heal lives until you reach your Starting Lives. Once you reach that, you claw your way out of the Graveyard or Chapel, depending on alignment.

3. When in the "Underworld", you draw Adventure Cards from the discard pile. Whenever you "kill" a creature with a Strength or Craft equal to or higher than yours, you heal 1 Life.

4. My thoughts on locations:

Have a single "Entry Space" called the "Crossroads". From this space you can travel to or from any other "Underworld" space. To travel from one space to another, you must return to the Crossroads space. Perhaps require a 2d6 vs Craft roll (similar to the Mines) which either puts you on a random space in the "Underworld" or, if you roll high enough, you get to choose.

5. Put new Adventure Cards which have one type of effect on the proper board and another in the "Underworld".

6. If you should lose Lives beyond zero, lose a Craft instead (representing your willpower being eaten away). This CAN go below your Starting Craft. If it reaches zero, your spirit is so weakened you are effectively out of the game. New character time!

Just some ideas!

Best Regards

DTH

dth said:

So only those who die later in the game will have a real chance to come back quickly or at all? Hmm... On contemplation, it's not a bad idea. A low attribute adventurer that dies should probably be replaced with a new one (and that option should be available, should a player not want to languish in futility in the Netherworld). On the other hand, it would decrease the use of the Netherworld, but some of your other notions might balance this enough to keep it viable as another realm to visit... but without the Dungeon's shortcut to the CoC.

What do you think of the idea that the different alignments have different cards to draw? Like Good, Evil and Neutral adventure cards?

How about the idea that Lives don't matter at all? If you lose a combat you discard a trophy/fate, and if you can't, your done?

Talismania said:

Personally, I might get a kick out of it. But I just know most people won't; they'd call it too complicated, fussy, hinky, etc. And overall, modern players don't even want to think about alignment at all. It gets in the way of them choosing certain characters with which to pound on each other. I think there should definitely be some alignment based cards in a Netherworld deck, maybe even just slightly more than in the Adventure deck by proportions, but one deck is probably best to have wider appeal.

Talismania said:

Well, the problem is that most adventurers ending up in the Netherworld won't have much of anything when they get there. If they've already traded in all trophies for S/C, then their kinda screwed. And Fate is the hardest thing to get you hands on in 4ER. For me, I'd want a Netherworld that really some adventurer time in it.

I suppose instead of dealing with negative Lives, you could add something like Death tokens. A simple rule could be listed that living adventurers in there may choose to lose a Life in order to avoid taking a Death token. But anyone accumulating 4 Death tokens is immediately hauled off to their appropriate afterlife (and they lose). Maybe something like that? And regardless of Death token count, you have to have at least 1 Life to have any chance to escape the Netherworld (or a mechanic where the more lives the better your chance).

Anyone leaving the Netherworld could (1) have to keep accumulated Death tokens, in case they went back, or (2) discards them. If Death tokens were kept, and you went back in a second time, its more likely you won't get out again. Some the Netherworld can have some adventure in it, even be a place where the living might go in the hopes of power and glory, but it'll be a risk unto itself, and more so if you tempt Death one too many times.

Obviously that's got some fussy bits to it as well... it's just a notion off the top of my head.