I've been thinking about how to bring Rieekan into line since taking him to the BC regionals, (and without reading the 6 pages that appeared since last night, so apologies if this has been suggested), my thought was to simply make any "zombie" ships become flotillas when overlapped/overlapping, and "zombie" squadrons become Heavy. I like @shmitty's plan for removing them after activating, too.

I also like @shmitty's idea of flotillas not preventing tabling as well. That's better than what our group came up with, namely swapping their Scatter for a Redirect.

6 minutes ago, Armada Jim said:

I also like @shmitty's idea of flotillas not preventing tabling as well. That's better than what our group came up with, namely swapping their Scatter for a Redirect.

It's not far off from the idea often kicked around of having flotillas just count as squadrons, outright. IE., count against the squadron point limit, don't have the hidden 'commander' upgrade slot, etc.

4 minutes ago, xanderf said:

It's not far off from the idea often kicked around of having flotillas just count as squadrons, outright. IE., count against the squadron point limit, don't have the hidden 'commander' upgrade slot, etc.

I'm not a fan of that unless it comes with upping squadron points to 150. I loves me some squadrons. The commander slot I can take or leave, honestly.

38 minutes ago, Eggzavier said:

They have two tokens.

You attack.

They discard a token to stop from dying.

You attack a second time.

They discard their second token to stop from dying.

They now have no more tokens.

You attack a third time.

They are dead.

If they are near dead already otherwise they just scatter live and ignore you or Brace, live and ignore you, or redirect, live and ignore you.

I think you are thinking of a situation that may or may not exist.

Just now, Lyraeus said:

I think you are thinking of a situation that may or may not exist.

I mean, the whole point of discarding the token is to avoid dying.

Not to block damage.

They're going to be near dead already.

That's the point.

Weren't we just talking that the game is a fun circle of rock paper scissors? Where even if you bring the biggest f*****g rock to the table, paper can still beat you? I mean I've kind of made some other's points with that statement, but ultimately, wouldn't it be easier to get something out that counters, but doesn't make winning automatic by taking it?

I'm a bigger fan of more fish in the pond vs straight nerf. Let Wave 6 come, and even maybe 7 if it happens this year. This is ultimately one event. I don't think it's time to proclaim Rieekan the end all be all. If they didn't nerf Demo, they aren't likely to start with Zombie Lord.

13 minutes ago, xanderf said:

It's not far off from the idea often kicked around of having flotillas just count as squadrons, outright. IE., count against the squadron point limit, don't have the hidden 'commander' upgrade slot, etc.

When you say "not far off" did you mean "wildly different"?

12 minutes ago, xanderf said:

It's not far off from the idea often kicked around of having flotillas just count as squadrons, outright. IE., count against the squadron point limit, don't have the hidden 'commander' upgrade slot, etc.

7 minutes ago, Armada Jim said:

I'm not a fan of that unless it comes with upping squadron points to 150. I loves me some squadrons. The commander slot I can take or leave, honestly.

The main difference with the tabling thing is adding risk. Right now you can bring a flotilla and use it as an activation and issue commands through Relay while hiding in a corner with nearly with zero risk at all.

Flotillas not preventing tabling adds considerable risk to that strategy. The survival of 2 small ships being all that's keeping your fleet on the table would be risky!

5 minutes ago, Eggzavier said:

I mean, the whole point of discarding the token is to avoid dying.

Not to block damage.

They're going to be near dead already.

That's the point.

If you live by blocking the damage why would you discard a token?

Just trying to think outside the box (relative to this thread since I know the stuff I'm about to say has been said in the past):

What if squadrons were capped at 1/4 points instead of 1/3?

The players that like squadrons can still take a bunch (lots of players like them). Less shenanigans for Rieekan lists to throw at people. Brings ships a little more into the forefront. Changes Relay a little since it would be a bigger investment of your total squadron budget. Flotillas are still there and work well for activations but don't have as many squadrons on the board to throw at the enemy. It's also not a gigantic shift in the rules but it has implications that affect some of the best lists right now.

5 minutes ago, shmitty said:

The main difference with the tabling thing is adding risk. Right now you can bring a flotilla and use it as an activation and issue commands through Relay while hiding in a corner with nearly with zero risk at all.

Flotillas not preventing tabling adds considerable risk to that strategy. The survival of 2 small ships being all that's keeping your fleet on the table would be risky!

This this this. If all i need to do to beat you is smash Yavaris and the Phoenix Home, heck yeah ill throw everything I have at it.

Just now, Ken-Obi said:

Just trying to think outside the box (relative to this thread since I know the stuff I'm about to say has been said in the past):

What if squadrons were capped at 1/4 points instead of 1/3?

The players that like squadrons can still take a bunch (lots of players like them). Less shenanigans for Rieekan lists to throw at people. Brings ships a little more into the forefront. Changes Relay a little since it would be a bigger investment of your total squadron budget. Flotillas are still there and work well for activations but don't have as many squadrons on the board to throw at the enemy. It's also not a gigantic shift in the rules but it has implications that affect some of the best lists right now.

But why do we need to change squadron play? Its not SQUADRONS that are the problem (of this thread), its a specific Rieekan list issue. Why does my Dodonna 8 Y wings plan suffer just because Rieekan is all over the top table.

Just now, geek19 said:

Why does my Dodonna 8 Y wings plan suffer just because Rieekan is all over the top table.

Y not?

So after consideration I think the solution is actually rather simple and elegant.

When a ship affected by Rieekan is destroyed, you may immediately discard any upgrade cards (except Rieekan), command tokens and Defense Tokens equipped to it to keep it on the board until the end of the status phase. If a unique squadron affected by Rieekan is destroyed, ignore its printed card text except for its movement value, hull value, anti squadron armament, and anti ship battery armament. It is removed at the end of the status phase.

This results in the ship or squadron still being available in a reduced, heavily damaged capacity. But it still gets to take a final action or hold a critical position until the end of the game.

This also finally gives alpha strike lists some methods to fight Rieekan that don't have to be planned entirely in the list building phase.

honestly i don't know what is best for the game and what should be done. other people in this community are better players than me.

but i do know this: ignoring the wave 1 worlds, after previous worlds finals were rebels vs rebels, something seemed slightly off; i dismissed it because some imperials were doing good and because there were quite some differences betwen the two finals lists. for me, who wins the finals isnt everything; perhaps the point scoring system didnt help a player get to the finals.

but now, the situation is different. we see a full top 8 rebels. i believe this is hyperbolic. there is definitely something going on here. i cannot quite place it; its a synergies thing.

I like the idea of flotillas not preventing a tabling. Hell they technically arent capital ships cause they cant cause damage during a ram to a capital ship, why should it prevent a tabling?

53 minutes ago, Lyraeus said:

If you live by blocking the damage why would you discard a token?

If you live by using your tokens to block damage under current Rieekan then you don't die then either.

4 minutes ago, Eggzavier said:

If you live by using your tokens to block damage under current Rieekan then you don't die then either.

Exactly. So to prevent them from being able to use their tokens you can I tell Officer them or force your opponent to use them through squadrons. However use a token to force survival is a huge nerf and changes his entire use

27 minutes ago, Kikaze said:

but now, the situation is different. we see a full top 8 rebels. i believe this is hyperbolic. there is definitely something going on here. i cannot quite place it; its a synergies thing.

Do we have a confirmed top 8 Rebels only?

9 minutes ago, Lyraeus said:

Do we have a confirmed top 8 Rebels only?

Yes. No lists yet but it was apparently Ackbar and another Rebel commander rounding out the top 8. 6 Rieekan, Ackbar, and I'm guessing Dodonna or Mothma given that the non-Rieekan lists were mostly combat ship oriented.

Lots of good ideas in this thread. And no one really getting too angry. Is this even the internet anymore?

19 minutes ago, thecactusman17 said:

Yes. No lists yet but it was apparently Ackbar and another Rebel commander rounding out the top 8. 6 Rieekan, Ackbar, and I'm guessing Dodonna or Mothma given that the non-Rieekan lists were mostly combat ship oriented.

Much faction. Very Balance. Wow.

10 minutes ago, Milienius said:

Much faction. Very Balance. Wow.

Rebels have won every Worlds so far, even in metas where Imperial were doing much better than they are now. This is unusual because of the uniformity of list design. We'll see a balance response to this either by FAQ or by new product.

Here's what I can remember from the the standings at the end of round-5:

I've used a short description of the list archetype

1. Rieekan (aces)

2. Rieekan (aces)

3. Ackbar (death pickle)

4. Rieekan (aces)

5. Mothma (Shrimp activation spam)

6. Rieekan (aces)

7 and 8: I don't know them and didn't get a good look at their lists.

9. Imperial (I didn't really get a good look at his list, but definitely not a light squadron package)

10. Imperial (Activation spam plus squadrons)

11. Imperial (I think he had an ISD)

12. Rieekan (aces)

13. I don't know him and didn't get a good look at the list

14. Rebel (Shrimp activation spam)

15. Rieekan (aces)

16. Rieekan (Ramstrosity)

17. I don't know him and didn't get a good look at his list

18. Imperial (ISD. I think double, but I'm not quite sure. This was PT106. I talked with him quite a bit, but didn't really go over the list thoroughly. I'm sure he'll post it later.)

19/20. I don't know them and didn't get a good look at the lists

21. Rieekan (aces)

22. Rieekan (Ramstrosity)

23. Imperial (dual ISD)

24. Classic Ben (Madine, Liberty)

I'm going to stop there because that's me and in my own post, I can stop in that rather arbitrary place. I also become much less familiar with names and lists below that point. My apologies if anyone is offended by this oversight.

A few reflections from my own games.

Match-ups really do matter a lot in how you end up in performance. The right set of match-ups make that climb up the rankings much easier. This is true both in the sense of the skill level of the opponent that you face as well as in how your list archetype matches up against theirs.

Two players might be of similarly high skill level, but one critical mistake can tilt the game several points. And a single tournament point represents a rather significant number of places of finish in the tournament. Given the level of play I saw, it is worth looking quite deep into the field, because there were some good lists and good regional winners even below spot 24 where I stopped. The match-ups just didn't go their way.

If you scan the above, you've got 5 Imperials and 6 unknowns. Depending upon how the unknowns fall, that's a very heavy Rebel tilt at the top. Then within the Rebels, that's a very heavy tilt toward Rieekan and squadrons. The Ramstrocities are Rieekan-based.

From my own experience, the games I've played against Justin and Tyler (4 and 6 respectively) locally has only shown me that the game is razor tight, and in the event of a win, it is really tough to expect more than a 7. I'd lost 5 in a row to Tyler, and although I had a good tight game with Justin the Sunday going into Worlds, it ended in a 16MOV in his favor. Although I think MC30 spam can certainly match-up with it while shining against other lists, the tournament showed, in my opinion, how incredibly luck dependent those lists can be. Caldias said he didn't have to play a squadron heavy list the entire tournament. I didn't face a huge one either. That's the luck of the pairings. Ardaedhel suffered a string of Luke hit-crits that just snowballed from there. I've spent the last couple of months in some degree of consternation over how I'd play against a very squadron-heavy list with the game plan going into worlds of trying to snipe a flotilla or two with the Liberty at long range (I had the build for it) while otherwise trying to run away and salvage a 6-5. That's certainly one way to win a game and may have been the right kind of play going into an elimination finals. It might have been a fair plan for the tournament, since you can weather a loss and still be in it. The top finishers were playing each other to such results in the 4th and 5th rounds. You really do have to be the best able to make up for it by strong wins in your other games.

I'll leave this here for others to fill in or for people to speculate and comment on.

3 minutes ago, Vergilius said:

Here's what I can remember from the the standings at the end of round-5:

I've used a short description of the list archetype

1. Rieekan (aces)

2. Rieekan (aces)

3. Ackbar (death pickle)

4. Rieekan (aces)

5. Mothma (Shrimp activation spam)

6. Rieekan (aces)

7 and 8: I don't know them and didn't get a good look at their lists.

9. Imperial (I didn't really get a good look at his list, but definitely not a light squadron package)

10. Imperial (Activation spam plus squadrons)

11. Imperial (I think he had an ISD)

12. Rieekan (aces)

13. I don't know him and didn't get a good look at the list

14. Rebel (Shrimp activation spam)

15. Rieekan (aces)

16. Rieekan (Ramstrosity)

17. I don't know him and didn't get a good look at his list

18. Imperial (ISD. I think double, but I'm not quite sure. This was PT106. I talked with him quite a bit, but didn't really go over the list thoroughly. I'm sure he'll post it later.)

19/20. I don't know them and didn't get a good look at the lists

21. Rieekan (aces)

22. Rieekan (Ramstrosity)

23. Imperial (dual ISD)

24. Classic Ben (Madine, Liberty)

I'm going to stop there because that's me and in my own post, I can stop in that rather arbitrary place. I also become much less familiar with names and lists below that point. My apologies if anyone is offended by this oversight.

A few reflections from my own games.

Match-ups really do matter a lot in how you end up in performance. The right set of match-ups make that climb up the rankings much easier. This is true both in the sense of the skill level of the opponent that you face as well as in how your list archetype matches up against theirs.

Two players might be of similarly high skill level, but one critical mistake can tilt the game several points. And a single tournament point represents a rather significant number of places of finish in the tournament. Given the level of play I saw, it is worth looking quite deep into the field, because there were some good lists and good regional winners even below spot 24 where I stopped. The match-ups just didn't go their way.

If you scan the above, you've got 5 Imperials and 6 unknowns. Depending upon how the unknowns fall, that's a very heavy Rebel tilt at the top. Then within the Rebels, that's a very heavy tilt toward Rieekan and squadrons. The Ramstrocities are Rieekan-based.

From my own experience, the games I've played against Justin and Tyler (4 and 6 respectively) locally has only shown me that the game is razor tight, and in the event of a win, it is really tough to expect more than a 7. I'd lost 5 in a row to Tyler, and although I had a good tight game with Justin the Sunday going into Worlds, it ended in a 16MOV in his favor. Although I think MC30 spam can certainly match-up with it while shining against other lists, the tournament showed, in my opinion, how incredibly luck dependent those lists can be. Caldias said he didn't have to play a squadron heavy list the entire tournament. I didn't face a huge one either. That's the luck of the pairings. Ardaedhel suffered a string of Luke hit-crits that just snowballed from there. I've spent the last couple of months in some degree of consternation over how I'd play against a very squadron-heavy list with the game plan going into worlds of trying to snipe a flotilla or two with the Liberty at long range (I had the build for it) while otherwise trying to run away and salvage a 6-5. That's certainly one way to win a game and may have been the right kind of play going into an elimination finals. It might have been a fair plan for the tournament, since you can weather a loss and still be in it. The top finishers were playing each other to such results in the 4th and 5th rounds. You really do have to be the best able to make up for it by strong wins in your other games.

I'll leave this here for others to fill in or for people to speculate and comment on.

Did you get a look at the amount of Rebels vs Imperial players there? Just curious about the amount of Rieekan spam vs the amount of Rebel players, and what the Imperial players were running.

Just now, geek19 said:

Did you get a look at the amount of Rebels vs Imperial players there? Just curious about the amount of Rieekan spam vs the amount of Rebel players, and what the Imperial players were running.

A bird's eye surface glance? I pretty much agree with what someone said earlier. Was it 2/3 or 3/4 Rebel? It was pretty high, whatever it was.