Just now, Snipafist said:

I mean if you wanted to limit it, why not make it so Rieekan saves his usual suspects once they hit death the one time but then subsequent damage against a zombie would destroy it?

This assumes that I agree that Rieekan needs a nerf, which I'm undecided on, but let's assume I'm down for that.

It is amusing that two people had the exact same idea and neither of them think Rieekan needs a nerf to begin with.

1 minute ago, Eggzavier said:

Elaborate please.

In a non-conclusory fashion.

How many attacks would it take to strip a ship of its tokens? What if they don't spend that last token and use it to Rieekan? If they will die anyway why waste it?

Overall you are going to either over kill a ship or under kill it to take out the tokens but in the end it can just not spend it and die then spend the token

9 minutes ago, Lyraeus said:

1) How many attacks would it take to strip a ship of its tokens?

2) What if they don't spend that last token and use it to Rieekan? If they will die anyway why waste it?

3) Overall you are going to either over kill a ship or under kill it to take out the tokens but in the end it can just not spend it and die then spend the token

1) 3 - 4 successful attacks based on the number of tokens available to ships currently once it was within kill range for a ship, and 1-2 for a squadron. The point though is that you're requiring some expenditure of a finite resource and provides further reward for continuing to attack a ship after the ability has been popped. You're also forcing the opponent to decide whether to burn tokens earlier or keep them around for Rieekan's ability.

2) Not sure what your point is there. This already happens with Admonition quite a bit. It makes the ship weaker in exchange for staying alive a bit longer.

3) The main point with this change would be that overkilling a ship / squadron is still available as an option. Underkilling it to take out tokens will still affect the game, whereas if you underkill a Rieekan ship currently its still going to stick around until the next round anyways.

And, as you mentioned, it removes the ability from generic unique squadrons which can currently continue to soak damage long past the point of death.

41 minutes ago, Democratus said:

I left Star Trek: Attack Wing because of the runaway power creep.

Then I played X-Wing until the power creep started to take hold.

Maybe it's just the fate of any miniatures game that has waves of releases...it's inevitable in order to get customers to buy the new product?

I hope not. I really love Armada.

I dunno if Armada has power creep in the traditional sense (new releases replacing old ones, old ones relegated to obscurity) I mean, what just won? A list that contained a wave 2 commander, two wave one ships, and fighters from all over. And flotillas.

The issue to me (oversimplified for brevity) is that the synergies the list employs have only gotten stronger while the natural checks have not.

I wrote a blog post on FFG's use of Errata in other games and how it might apply to what happened at Worlds: http://xwingtactics.blogspot.com/2017/05/will-ffg-get-out-its-nerf-bat.html

13 minutes ago, shmitty said:

I wrote a blog post on FFG's use of Errata in other games and how it might apply to what happened at Worlds: http://xwingtactics.blogspot.com/2017/05/will-ffg-get-out-its-nerf-bat.html

I don't think you missed anything, but one solution may be what I posted here:

36 minutes ago, Darth Sanguis said:

May be a stupid thought, and I guess it's more of a fighter nerf than anything, but maybe steps should be created to treat attacks on ships by squadrons activated by the same ship as a single "attack" in terms of spending defense tokens and using special abilities....

So folks getting attacked by say 3 b-wings relayed from Yavaris skirting the edge of the map can combine the 6x attack results into one pool to make defenses more effective....

Thematically it kinda makes sense too, squadrons being directed for bomber runs typically do so well within the time frame of a standard ship to ship assault...

Makes alphas less hurtful, and makes the squadron phase have a purpose again....

IDK loose thoughts I guess

I don't think the problem is any one of the parts you mentioned individually but rather that they combine with squadrons so well

I think squadrons activated by a single ship should have to combine their pools while attacking against ships, it doesn't kill the squadron damage output enough to kill squadron fleets, but takes the edge off, it makes activating in the squadron phase worthwhile for shredding ships, but makes it more difficult, and it makes sense in terms of theme...

Good read though!

Another solution to the Rieekan aces problem is to point at the guy using the list and say "Shame, Shame, Shame"

The other potential change, is to make Unique squadrons, once they have sustained enough damage to kill them, have the rules text be suspended, no Def tokens, no abilities. Keep attack dice the same & they get removed in the status phase as normal.

This would stop someone redirecting a ton of damage to a dead squadron, it would also reduce the effectiveness of Rieekan and Unique squadrons.

2 minutes ago, Sybreed said:

Another solution to the Rieekan aces problem is to point at the guy using the list and say "Shame, Shame, Shame"

Just flop your junk on the table and proudly exclaim "this too shall never die!"

5 minutes ago, Sybreed said:

Another solution to the Rieekan aces problem is to point at the guy using the list and say "Shame, Shame, Shame"

2 minutes ago, Madaghmire said:

Just flop your junk on the table and proudly exclaim "this too shall never die!"

We got this guys. Everyone at Worlds just took all the Rieekan players out back and took care of them. It took us a while. First, because of RMb. Second, because we used ACTUAL NERF BATS.

#teamRMb

Wasn't it like 2 weeks ago that it wasn't squadrons that we're the problem but flotillas? What changed?

Follow-up: if the proposed "flotillas don't count for tabling" nerf happens, how would THAT effect the Rieekan swarm list? Can kill 2 ships of the other guy before getting tabled?

My problem with a lot of the proposed Rieekan nerfs are the same as the proposed Thrawn abilities: they're too much and people are trying to punish their opponent for either daring to play against you (as Thrawn or with Rieekan).

1 minute ago, CaribbeanNinja said:

We got this guys. Everyone at Worlds just took all the Rieekan players out back and took care of them. It took us a while. First, because of RMb. Second, because we used ACTUAL NERF BATS.

#teamRMb

I'm interpreting "took care of them" in two diameterically different ways and neither are good.

Just now, Madaghmire said:

I'm interpreting "took care of them" in two diameterically different ways and neither are good.

Yes.

Also, we now have 54 uncut Dodonna alt art card we happened to find.

Just now, CaribbeanNinja said:

Yes.

Also, we now have 54 uncut Dodonna alt art card we happened to find.

Sticky Fingers.

1 minute ago, geek19 said:

Wasn't it like 2 weeks ago that it wasn't squadrons that we're the problem but flotillas? What changed?

Follow-up: if the proposed "flotillas don't count for tabling" nerf happens, how would THAT effect the Rieekan swarm list? Can kill 2 ships of the other guy before getting tabled?

My problem with a lot of the proposed Rieekan nerfs are the same as the proposed Thrawn abilities: they're too much and people are trying to punish their opponent for either daring to play against you (as Thrawn or with Rieekan).

Nothing changed,

I've been facing Rieekan Ace builds in tournaments since wave 2, but recent additions, like flotillas, and a ton more Rebel Aces, changed Rieekan from being a strong Admiral, but not really any better than the other Rebel choices, to the must take admiral & build for competitions.

1 minute ago, geek19 said:

Wasn't it like 2 weeks ago that it wasn't squadrons that we're the problem but flotillas? What changed?

Follow-up: if the proposed "flotillas don't count for tabling" nerf happens, how would THAT effect the Rieekan swarm list? Can kill 2 ships of the other guy before getting tabled?

My problem with a lot of the proposed Rieekan nerfs are the same as the proposed Thrawn abilities: they're too much and people are trying to punish their opponent for either daring to play against you (as Thrawn or with Rieekan).

RE: Flotillas, some of us still feel that way, made the points we wanted to, and just moved on from there. Just because we aren't trying to burn this forum down with constant rehashing doesn't mean we don't think that is something worth looking at.

The "don't count as tabling" isn't a bad idea, definitely goes in the right direction. We'll have to see what planned changes may be in the works. Flotilla popularity increases squadron popularity, and if you want a good squadron commander for rebels, there are three choices: Dodonna, Sato, and Rieekan. For tournaments, most lean toward the one that is the most forgiving to play, which makes a lot of sense. I wouldn't say Rieekan himself is a problem, but his popularity and ubiquity lead to staleness, which is less optimal than a diverse, vibrant meta. And if a tweak to Rieekan leads to more diversity, that's not a bad thing. We'll see what's coming!

43 minutes ago, Eggzavier said:

1) 3 - 4 successful attacks based on the number of tokens available to ships currently once it was within kill range for a ship, and 1-2 for a squadron. The point though is that you're requiring some expenditure of a finite resource and provides further reward for continuing to attack a ship after the ability has been popped. You're also forcing the opponent to decide whether to burn tokens earlier or keep them around for Rieekan's ability.

2) Not sure what your point is there. This already happens with Admonition quite a bit. It makes the ship weaker in exchange for staying alive a bit longer.

3) The main point with this change would be that overkilling a ship / squadron is still available as an option. Underkilling it to take out tokens will still affect the game, whereas if you underkill a Rieekan ship currently its still going to stick around until the next round anyways.

And, as you mentioned, it removes the ability from generic unique squadrons which can currently continue to soak damage long past the point of death.

1) 2 per token unless you Intel Officer. For squadrons, 2 hits per token that you do at least 2 damage or more per attack.

Your change stated that they would count as being 1 hull. Not perfect token but just dead but hey what would I know.

5 minutes ago, Lyraeus said:

1) 2 per token unless you Intel Officer. For squadrons, 2 hits per token that you do at least 2 damage or more per attack.

Your change stated that they would count as being 1 hull. Not perfect token but just dead but hey what would I know.

Did you miss the point where I changed from 'spend' to 'discard'?

I'm still not sure what you're getting at with your second line.

1 minute ago, Caldias said:

RE: Flotillas, some of us still feel that way, made the points we wanted to, and just moved on from there. Just because we aren't trying to burn this forum down with constant rehashing doesn't mean we don't think that is something worth looking at.

The "don't count as tabling" isn't a bad idea, definitely goes in the right direction. We'll have to see what planned changes may be in the works. Flotilla popularity increases squadron popularity, and if you want a good squadron commander for rebels, there are three choices: Dodonna, Sato, and Rieekan. For tournaments, most lean toward the one that is the most forgiving to play, which makes a lot of sense. I wouldn't say Rieekan himself is a problem, but his popularity and ubiquity lead to staleness, which is less optimal than a diverse, vibrant meta. And if a tweak to Rieekan leads to more diversity, that's not a bad thing. We'll see what's coming!

I'd be OK with a tweak towards the flotillas rules, but my worry about a Rieekan nerf/tweak/what have you is that it's specifically targeting Rieekan, who is a very good Commander for new people starting out. FFG generally isn't going to reword/reprint Rieekan's wording so he would work differently, (because thats expensive and a pain for people who havent read the FAQ, as I believe @Drasnighta was telling us before), so I don't forsee a LOT of changes being made there. It also actively hurts people who WANT to run a bunch of Aces and play with squadrons (I consider myself somewhat in this vein, haha).

That's also my concern with the "flotillas count as squadrons" argument. If you do that to @Ardaedhel and his 4 MC30 list, he doesn't care. Meanwhile, you're actively hurting the guy who WANTS to run 134 points of squadrons. That's not a "nerf," that's changing the fundamental rules of the game to actively quash a List Type. Not one list, but ANY list that wants to run a bunch of squadrons (Rhymerballs are included there). I don't think that one is going to happen for that reason alone, because it gives people no reason to RUN crazy fighter lists, which means less reasons to BUY crazy amounts of fighters and/or play the game the "way they want."

Seeing several versions of the Rieekan list is problematic, in that it means it's a very viable type that is hard to counter. That doesn't mean (IMO) that squadron play needs to die or that heavy squadrons shouldn't be a viable List Type (let's remember, the original Mythics one had just Wedge, Shara, and Jan!), it just means that it needs some more counters to that TYPE of squadron play or to make it slightly more viable to fight against. The ways you do that (IMO): change Rieekan, change flotillas, or change squadron suchnsuch. I don't think they're changing Rieekan, I don't see them changing much more with squadron abilities and what they can/cant do, so that's why i'm saying it's likely a "change flotillas slightly" plan.

I'd be OK with the "flotillas don't count for tabling" because it actively affects everyone while also being a soft nerf to Rieekan. It doesn't change your ability to run him the way you want, but it does make it slightly more troubling to run Yavaris-Pelta-3 Flotillas. If I only need to kill Yavaris and the Pelta to table you, then you better believe I'm running everything I have at them to kill them. It also means that people playing in metas where the flotillas are on the other half of the mat get their complaints (effectively) heard and (again) only have to kill 1-2 ships to win the match.

2 minutes ago, geek19 said:

I'd be OK with a tweak towards the flotillas rules, but my worry about a Rieekan nerf/tweak/what have you is that it's specifically targeting Rieekan, who is a very good Commander for new people starting out. FFG generally isn't going to reword/reprint Rieekan's wording so he would work differently, (because thats expensive and a pain for people who havent read the FAQ, as I believe @Drasnighta was telling us before), so I don't forsee a LOT of changes being made there. It also actively hurts people who WANT to run a bunch of Aces and play with squadrons (I consider myself somewhat in this vein, haha).

That's also my concern with the "flotillas count as squadrons" argument. If you do that to @Ardaedhel and his 4 MC30 list, he doesn't care. Meanwhile, you're actively hurting the guy who WANTS to run 134 points of squadrons. That's not a "nerf," that's changing the fundamental rules of the game to actively quash a List Type. Not one list, but ANY list that wants to run a bunch of squadrons (Rhymerballs are included there). I don't think that one is going to happen for that reason alone, because it gives people no reason to RUN crazy fighter lists, which means less reasons to BUY crazy amounts of fighters and/or play the game the "way they want."

Seeing several versions of the Rieekan list is problematic, in that it means it's a very viable type that is hard to counter. That doesn't mean (IMO) that squadron play needs to die or that heavy squadrons shouldn't be a viable List Type (let's remember, the original Mythics one had just Wedge, Shara, and Jan!), it just means that it needs some more counters to that TYPE of squadron play or to make it slightly more viable to fight against. The ways you do that (IMO): change Rieekan, change flotillas, or change squadron suchnsuch. I don't think they're changing Rieekan, I don't see them changing much more with squadron abilities and what they can/cant do, so that's why i'm saying it's likely a "change flotillas slightly" plan.

I'd be OK with the "flotillas don't count for tabling" because it actively affects everyone while also being a soft nerf to Rieekan. It doesn't change your ability to run him the way you want, but it does make it slightly more troubling to run Yavaris-Pelta-3 Flotillas. If I only need to kill Yavaris and the Pelta to table you, then you better believe I'm running everything I have at them to kill them. It also means that people playing in metas where the flotillas are on the other half of the mat get their complaints (effectively) heard and (again) only have to kill 1-2 ships to win the match.

As someone that placed pretty well in Worlds with my own 3 MC30s and 4 flotillas list, I hear you, the flotillas count as squadrons really doesn't affect me a ton. I would go as far to say that there is no counter to Rieekan, as his ability is just super good, and yes, especially for new players. Rieekan in of himself is a mitigator for first player alpha strikes, and I think the combination of 2nd player getting much more advantageous via strategic and more objectives also is a contributing factor as to why he is super attractive to a lot of players now.

10 minutes ago, Caldias said:

As someone that placed pretty well in Worlds with my own 3 MC30s and 4 flotillas list, I hear you, the flotillas count as squadrons really doesn't affect me a ton. I would go as far to say that there is no counter to Rieekan, as his ability is just super good, and yes, especially for new players. Rieekan in of himself is a mitigator for first player alpha strikes, and I think the combination of 2nd player getting much more advantageous via strategic and more objectives also is a contributing factor as to why he is super attractive to a lot of players now.

Ha, why do you think he was the first topic in my Commander's thing on the blog? Fighting him changes SO MUCH about Armada. I will definitely say that he was sorely needed in Wave 2, what with Demo being everywhere. Now, he's good, but if you can do more with him, he's crazy good.

Rieekan lists are a bit like Judo, in that the more force you use against them the more they hand you your own arse.

This is a problem as the general tactical paradigm for winning in armada is hit first and hard with well concentrated forces, killing key units before they activate into you, then with the advantage mop up for the table and mega points. Playing this way against a five ship with full fat fighter bombers Rieekan list will get you dead.

The answer to nerfing the Rieekan list is to play very differently.

Basic rules to surving the zombie apocalypse (note focus on surviving not tabling him)

Pre game:

1) pick missions that score points and make him come to you.

2) have a bid for second player ( remember zombies want to go second).

In game:

1) Always pick second player.

2) Do not force the engagement.

3) farm your mission for points.

4) If he does not force engagement be satisfied with you farmed points and take a 6-7 point win.

5) If he does force the engagement, focus your forces on any already activated overstreatched units or an isolated unit covering your next turns escape route.

6) Don't get bogged down, take your shot and disengage along your planned escape route.

7) Never ever engage in a "multi ship pile up slog feist" he will win.

Those are my basics rules for playing against zombie lists, I apply them when Im playing my favourite Demsu lists. It not the most exciting of games and I would not play this way on friendly club matches, but in competion play its how I counter the zombie lord.

35 minutes ago, Eggzavier said:

Did you miss the point where I changed from 'spend' to 'discard'?

I'm still not sure what you're getting at with your second line.

You can still discard spent tokens and if they have 2 tokens you would need 4 attacks and they would still have to spend the last token. If they will die anyway, why care?

Probably its been already mentioned, but slicers tools can shut down Yavaris, or the Fc ship, taking away lot of threat, only the flottilas being able to push fighters. But this can be also cancelled by using Leia...
Supressor, Tractor beam, Slicers + Avenger might be able to cause problems.

29 minutes ago, Lyraeus said:

You can still discard spent tokens and if they have 2 tokens you would need 4 attacks and they would still have to spend the last token. If they will die anyway, why care?

They have two tokens.

You attack.

They discard a token to stop from dying.

You attack a second time.

They discard their second token to stop from dying.

They now have no more tokens.

You attack a third time.

They are dead.