Just now, WuFame said:

Ahem, flotillas.

Yup, flotillas were the counter to Demo, and now they've become the staple of 75% of the fleets we see

Just now, Sybreed said:

Yup, flotillas were the counter to Demo, and now they've become the staple of 75% of the fleets we see

They are wondrous things but they might be too cheap.

What about:

"When one of your ships or squadrons would be destroyed after the resolution of an attack, you may spend a defense token.

If you spend a defense token, the ship or squadron is not destroyed, and remains in the play area as if it had one health remaining."

(inb4 people jump on this as not being an available solution under the current rules -> obviously it would be cleaned up to comport with rules. Would something in this spirit 'fix' riker?)

I left Star Trek: Attack Wing because of the runaway power creep.

Then I played X-Wing until the power creep started to take hold.

Maybe it's just the fate of any miniatures game that has waves of releases...it's inevitable in order to get customers to buy the new product?

I hope not. I really love Armada.

May be a stupid thought, and I guess it's more of a fighter nerf than anything, but maybe steps should be created to treat attacks on ships by squadrons activated by the same ship as a single "attack" in terms of spending defense tokens and using special abilities....

So folks getting attacked by say 3 b-wings relayed from Yavaris skirting the edge of the map can combine the 6x attack results into one pool to make defenses more effective....

Thematically it kinda makes sense too, squadrons being directed for bomber runs typically do so well within the time frame of a standard ship to ship assault...

Makes alphas less hurtful, and makes the squadron phase have a purpose again....

IDK loose thoughts I guess

5 minutes ago, Eggzavier said:

What about:

"When one of your ships or squadrons would be destroyed after the resolution of an attack, you may spend a defense token.

If you spend a defense token, the ship or squadron is not destroyed, and remains in the play area as if it had one health remaining."

(inb4 people jump on this as not being an available solution under the current rules -> obviously it would be cleaned up to comport with rules. Would something in this spirit 'fix' riker?)

Along that line of thinking, would making Rieekan a single-use trigger do anything?

I.e. Rieekan only happens the first time a ship or squadron would die that turn. So if you "kill" Yavaris, Rieekan steps in and zombifies it. If you then kill Yavaris again that turn, say with a double arc shot, then Yavaris is actually dead and removed as normal. This would keep zombie X-Wings from soaking up all the Biggs damage as well.

Edit: And by single-use, I don't mean Rieekan only works once per turn, I mean he only works once per turn per destroyed entity.

1 minute ago, Valca said:

Along that line of thinking, would making Rieekan a single-use trigger do anything?

I.e. Rieekan only happens the first time a ship or squadron would die that turn. So if you "kill" Yavaris, Rieekan steps in and zombifies it. If you then kill Yavaris again that turn, say with a double arc shot, then Yavaris is actually dead and removed as normal. This would keep zombie X-Wings from soaking up all the Biggs damage as well.

The 'single use' was my line of thinking also, or at least a somewhat limited resource that could involve some counterplay as well.

5 minutes ago, Darth Sanguis said:

May be a stupid thought, and I guess it's more of a fighter nerf than anything, but maybe steps should be created to treat attacks on ships by squadrons activated by the same ship as a single "attack" in terms of spending defense tokens and using special abilities....

So folks getting attacked by say 3 b-wings relayed from Yavaris skirting the edge of the map can combine the 6x attack results into one pool to make defenses more effective....

Thematically it kinda makes sense too, squadrons being directed for bomber runs typically do so well within the time frame of a standard ship to ship assault...

Makes alphas less hurtful, and makes the squadron phase have a purpose again....

IDK loose thoughts I guess

I actually rather like that as a solution. It benefits all ships, but is especially strong for large capitals.

At the same time though....three Yavaris'd B wings could just drop two or three accuracies on you and it still hurts quite a lot.

5 minutes ago, Valca said:

Along that line of thinking, would making Rieekan a single-use trigger do anything?

I.e. Rieekan only happens the first time a ship or squadron would die that turn. So if you "kill" Yavaris, Rieekan steps in and zombifies it. If you then kill Yavaris again that turn, say with a double arc shot, then Yavaris is actually dead and removed as normal. This would keep zombie X-Wings from soaking up all the Biggs damage as well.

Edit: And by single-use, I don't mean Rieekan only works once per turn, I mean he only works once per turn per destroyed entity.

You need to leave it on the field with enough to be worth the while of taking the commander while still being killable relative to its value. Were I to do something like that I would ape Motti and tie the new hull value to the size of the original ship. And to clarify, if the ship is not killed in a follow-on attack that round, does it still die at the end of the turn, or does it stay on the board because of the new increased hull value/removed damage cards?

1 minute ago, Democratus said:

I left Star Trek: Attack Wing because of the runaway power creep.

Then I played X-Wing until the power creep started to take hold.

Maybe it's just the fate of any miniatures game that has waves of releases...it's inevitable in order to get customers to buy the new product?

I hope not. I really love Armada.

I think there always must be some creep. You have to keep selling new ships, which means new and interesting abilities but not making them priced out of competitiveness means the new stuff will continue to get incrementally better.

Armada has at least been very good I think about keeping it to a minimum amount of creep so far.

1 minute ago, GiledPallaeon said:

You need to leave it on the field with enough to be worth the while of taking the commander while still being killable relative to its value. Were I to do something like that I would ape Motti and tie the new hull value to the size of the original ship. And to clarify, if the ship is not killed in a follow-on attack that round, does it still die at the end of the turn, or does it stay on the board because of the new increased hull value/removed damage cards?

I would say it stays on.

Rewarding counterplay for both sides.

One thing that I noticed last night, not having played or watched a Rieekan v Rieekan match before. Knowing that both your and your opponents squads will always be alive to shoot during the fighter phase freed both players to use fewer squadron commands - as traditional anti-squadron alpha strikes were neutered.

I found it interesting

Just now, GiledPallaeon said:

You need to leave it on the field with enough to be worth the while of taking the commander while still being killable relative to its value. Were I to do something like that I would ape Motti and tie the new hull value to the size of the original ship. And to clarify, if the ship is not killed in a follow-on attack that round, does it still die at the end of the turn, or does it stay on the board because of the new increased hull value/removed damage cards?

So instead of only requiring 1 hull damage to truly kill it, you would say it requires (1/2/3) damage to kill the zombie based on whether it's a s/m/l ship. That's an idea. I would say that yes, it needs to die at the end of round regardless.

19 minutes ago, Darth Sanguis said:

May be a stupid thought, and I guess it's more of a fighter nerf than anything, but maybe steps should be created to treat attacks on ships by squadrons activated by the same ship as a single "attack" in terms of spending defense tokens and using special abilities....

So folks getting attacked by say 3 b-wings relayed from Yavaris skirting the edge of the map can combine the 6x attack results into one pool to make defenses more effective....

Thematically it kinda makes sense too, squadrons being directed for bomber runs typically do so well within the time frame of a standard ship to ship assault...

Makes alphas less hurtful, and makes the squadron phase have a purpose again....

IDK loose thoughts I guess

It'd also speed up the game quite a bit, too, being able to resolve the entire attack in one throw of dice, instead of doing it as a series of steps.

And would be a HECK of a nerf to BCC - I mean, sure, with three BCC in range, you get to re-roll three dice in that attack, or re-roll one of them three times, but...very specifically not half of each attack being rolled possibly four times...

(Does get a little weird when determining damage. Like...how do you determine what hull zone takes damage, if the squadrons are surrounding the ship? And what about activations that are NOT ship-based? IE., fighters in the squadron phase? Do they attack all as one blob? What about 'Rogue' squadrons? etc. Definitely some nuance on that, to iron out...)

1 minute ago, GiledPallaeon said:

You need to leave it on the field with enough to be worth the while of taking the commander while still being killable relative to its value. Were I to do something like that I would ape Motti and tie the new hull value to the size of the original ship. And to clarify, if the ship is not killed in a follow-on attack that round, does it still die at the end of the turn, or does it stay on the board because of the new increased hull value/removed damage cards?

It looks like my suggestions didn't get much traction earlier but just to reiterate, why wouldn't you just make it simpler and just make it so the Rieeken effect last until the end of the zombified ship/fighter's activation?

Just now, Eggzavier said:

I would say it stays on.

Rewarding counterplay for both sides.

If you leave it on the table, you've actually strengthened Rieekan in certain scenarios. I get a killing shot on that Yavaris at the end of the round with my last ship. Instead of Yavaris dying, it comes back to life next round. Yikes.

Just now, Eggzavier said:

I would say it stays on.

Rewarding counterplay for both sides.

Just now, Valca said:

So instead of only requiring 1 hull damage to truly kill it, you would say it requires (1/2/3) damage to kill the zombie based on whether it's a s/m/l ship. That's an idea. I would say that yes, it needs to die at the end of round regardless.

MAKE UP YOUR MINDS! And yes, mostly to push Rieekan away from the small ship spam. Also, I'd have to think about which way I would take it, because leaving it on the field is certainly worth more than the current ability, but still leaves the option of a double-tap alpha, which is present in both cases. I would think leaving it on the board would run a really expensive cost, and would expect the other way to win out just so there are points left for a fleet, but I need more time to think. Whichever way you pick determines the wording of the card.

3 minutes ago, ImpStarDeuces said:

It looks like my suggestions didn't get much traction earlier but just to reiterate, why wouldn't you just make it simpler and just make it so the Rieeken effect last until the end of the zombified ship/fighter's activation?

I'm not sure that makes much of a difference from the current situation. Ships don't really care, though there will be edge cases where it's important, and any squadron you need to last a while *glances at Red Squadron* will just go as last as possible to maximize the effect. In some cases that would be a mild nerf, in others the effect will be minimal. It might work well for that reason, but it's a much more complicated situation to parse.

2 minutes ago, xanderf said:

It'd also speed up the game quite a bit, too, being able to resolve the entire attack in one throw of dice, instead of doing it as a series of steps.

And would be a HECK of a nerf to BCC - I mean, sure, with three BCC in range, you get to re-roll three dice in that attack, or re-roll one of them three times, but...very specifically not half of each attack being rolled possibly four times...

Well the steps I was thinking would leave individual rolls, so BCC could still be useful (it's 8 points after all) and then the total results are pooled, defense tokens are spent and with what's left out of that pool, one of the aces can proc it's ability.

But maybe, all I'm saying it it would take the edge off fighters without killing their power, and makes the alpha strike less of a "must"

4 minutes ago, Valca said:

If you leave it on the table, you've actually strengthened Rieekan in certain scenarios. I get a killing shot on that Yavaris at the end of the round with my last ship. Instead of Yavaris dying, it comes back to life next round. Yikes.

Maybe discarding a defense token then?

The idea being that you could still potentially alpha strike ships / squadrons.

This could definitely be a buff in certain situations, but in my mind the primary problem with Rieekan is there is no counterplay.

Having it be a save against specific attacks in my mind is better than it being blanket protection for an entire round that you can continue to pile damage on (like squadrons)

20 minutes ago, Eggzavier said:

What about:

"When one of your ships or squadrons would be destroyed after the resolution of an attack, you may spend a defense token.

If you spend a defense token, the ship or squadron is not destroyed, and remains in the play area as if it had one health remaining."

(inb4 people jump on this as not being an available solution under the current rules -> obviously it would be cleaned up to comport with rules. Would something in this spirit 'fix' riker?)

I would Intel Officer every ship I could. It is also too slow and not a great fix. Though it does remove the non Ace squadrons.

2 minutes ago, GiledPallaeon said:

I'm not sure that makes much of a difference from the current situation. Ships don't really care, though there will be edge cases where it's important, and any squadron you need to last a while *glances at Red Squadron* will just go as last as possible to maximize the effect. In some cases that would be a mild nerf, in others the effect will be minimal. It might work well for that reason, but it's a much more complicated situation to parse.

Got it. I guess I'm thinking about a surgical nerf to take the edge off. That means the activation game would become even more important and in conjunction with a flotilla nerf, I guess I figured it would just be the right amount of nerf applied.

I still think my idea is the best so far. Limit Rieekan to 2 squads you name at the start of the round. Or limit to 2 squad/ships per round.

It's much simpler and still quite effective.

I mean if you wanted to limit it, why not make it so Rieekan saves his usual suspects once they hit death the one time but then subsequent damage against a zombie would destroy it?

This assumes that I agree that Rieekan needs a nerf, which I'm undecided on, but let's assume I'm down for that.

2 minutes ago, Lyraeus said:

It is also too slow and not a great fix.

Elaborate please.

In a non-conclusory fashion.