The ubiquitous nature of flotillas is certainly contributing to a problem that nerfing Rieeken alone won't fix. But we've had this argument about 70 times now, and I just can't have it anymore. haha.
18 minutes ago, thecactusman17 said:It's not.
You make good points about the issue, but I feel the more elegant solution is to limit zombies per round rather than limit what Rieeken can zombie.
Edited by WuFameOn rieekan: perhaps a scaling cost? 5 points per affected ship and squadron? So at 5 ships and one unique he cost 30. 5 ships 3 uniques he cost 40? This way big ships become more interesting with him.
1 minute ago, WuFame said:The ubiquitous nature of flotillas is certainly contributing to a problem that nerfing Rieeken alone won't fix. But we've had this argument about 70 times now, and I just can't have it anymore. haha.
You make good points about the issue, but I feel the more elegant solution is to limit zombies per round rather than limit what Rieeken can zombie.
Making it ships only fixes the whole issue, because it limits your total number of zombies to the number of ships you fielded.
A good way to think of it is this: If tomorrow FFG announces the new Admiral Nakeeir: Imperial Sith Lord of the Undead, which would you find more concerning; Zombie Demolisher that dies after a round of shooting and doesn't triple-tap or Zombie Rhymer, Dengar, Vader, Maarek, Jendon, Zertik, and the Firespray crew?
3 minutes ago, Sybreed said:On rieekan: perhaps a scaling cost? 5 points per affected ship and squadron? So at 5 ships and one unique he cost 30. 5 ships 3 uniques he cost 40? This way big ships become more interesting with him.
No other commander follows that pricing model though. Players shouldn't have to pay more to use the commander in the way they were designed. Mothma players don't have to pay more if they add in extra evading ships.
I still feel the most elegant solution is the one offered in the OP. Simply limit Rieeken to a specific number of zombies in a around. Maybe 2. You could even say the player has to declare which ships can be zombied at the beginning of the round, rather than it just be the first units destroyed.
Edited by WuFameJust now, thecactusman17 said:Making it ships only fixes the whole issue,
And killing a fly with a sledgehammer fixes the issue of a fly buzzing around. It doesn't mean it's not excessive.
We disagree, dude. Just leave it there.
4 hours ago, Ginkapo said:Snipe works.
No one uses it.
Its very simple.
Actually didnt someone have Corran in their list?
Just now, Madaghmire said:Actually didnt someone have Corran in their list?
Yep. Norm did.
1 minute ago, Madaghmire said:Actually didnt someone have Corran in their list?
Imperials have 1 snipe in the entire fleet. Rebels have a generic and Corran, but since the game ran to time we'll never know if it actually worked.
4 minutes ago, WuFame said:Yep. Norm did.
And he won.
7 hours ago, GiledPallaeon said:Agent Kallus is your man
I was surprised that JJs counter to the ace list did not include Kallus on his raider.
Maybe come at Rieeken from a different angle. Maybe just change the timing? Rieeken zombies don't wait until the end of the turn to get taken off. Instead, they are taken off the table after they activate?
I still think making Flotillas not count when trying to wipe out all the capital ships solves all this. That takes the targets you need to focus fire on from 5 down to 2 and those 2 aren't excessively tough to kill.
A lot of points are invested in fighters and if you didn't bring an equal investment dedicated to killing those squadrons, rather than delaying, you're giving up a lot of victory points if you can't table your opponent. The problem with fighters has been that the traditional weakness they had was tabling, due to a lower number of potentially weaker capital ships. Flotillas removed that weakness in two ways.
1)They're difficult to kill efficiently if you're not running MSU. An ISD with H-9s will obliterate a flotilla, but that was 1 ship out of 5. And if you didn't bring H-9s or Sensor Teams, you're relying on luck to get you that 1 accuracy you need.
2)They're cheap. Point #1 isn't so bad when there's just 1 flotilla on the board, but when it's 3, you're dedicating a lot of firepower in most lists to killing 18-26 point gnats. Your firepower is greatly diluted when dealing with swarms of flotillas. Spending all those shots overkilling flotillas makes it significantly harder to bring down the larger ships to get that tabling.
Rieekan benefits from this imbalance, but without flotillas I just don't see a big problem. CC giving extra aces is problematic. I doubt they envisioned people running 6+ immortal and deadly aces in 1 non-CC list, but it's still something we can deal with if it were easier to table the guy running it.
Valca, interesting and that is how carrier fleets played out before flotillas. They had to be VERY careful to avoid losing all their ships for fear of having the game end with all their points in squads left on the table but considered killed.
Flots avoid this and you can almost always keep 1 alive. Carrier fleets were very hard to play vs msu rush fleets and at the time were considered weak and unplayable. Wave 2?
7 hours ago, Vergilius said:There are ways around him...
Madine gets around easily enough ?
3 hours ago, miedomeda said:Also, some time ago I theorycrafted and played a couple games with lists very similar to those under the scope now and, while good and kinda fun, they felt nowhere near unstoppable, as I'm reading now, the reason being 1) the clunkiness of rebel bombers, that are forced to move as a blob with the slower bwings dictating the pace 2) being the all rounders they are, I found rebel bombers at a disadvantage over a dedicated imperial AS wing 3) the small numbers (actually fitting 8 squadrons is a challange) 4) the dependance on the survivability of the blob centre, ie the gallant/pelta providing the activations.
What has changed now, and how do these Worlds top 4 guys overcome those problems?
Sorry to quote myself guys, but none of this was answered and I'm still uncertain whether this is a case of mass hysteria or an actual game balance problem.
17 minutes ago, Thraug said:Valca, interesting and that is how carrier fleets played out before flotillas. They had to be VERY careful to avoid losing all their ships for fear of having the game end with all their points in squads left on the table but considered killed.
Flots avoid this and you can almost always keep 1 alive. Carrier fleets were very hard to play vs msu rush fleets and at the time were considered weak and unplayable. Wave 2?
The issue becomes even more exaggerated in a tournament where those extra points on the table matter. Killing 130 points of Jan-protected fighters and/or aces is pretty difficult without a dedicated anti-fighter contingent. Harder, i would argue, than killing 130 points of non-flotilla ships. By investing so many points in tough fighters and denying tabling through flotillas, you're making it much easier to give up fewer points, regardless of whether you win or lose, which means more tournament points. And in a tournament, consistently earning points is what gets you to the top.
I really wish we had the exact breakdowns on every list's tournament progress so we could confirm this theory. Seeing that 75% of squadron heavy lists never score below 4 points while ship heavy lists didn't have that consistency, for example, would be strong confirmation. It makes sense to me, but empirical evidence would be great.
Edited by Valca3 minutes ago, miedomeda said:Sorry to quote myself guys, but none of this was answered and I'm still uncertain whether this is a case of mass hysteria or an actual game balance problem.
1) Fighter coordination team
2) Biggs or Gallant Heaven
3)??? That's not an issue?
4) Flotillas
@miedomedaprobably more hysteria than a horrible balance issue.
However, as a true Armada lover, I am concerned about a few things:
1. The Imperial absence in the top (I want to say top 16 but it seemed like all imperial players were hurting).
2. The look of the finals to anyone new watching. People at FFG would come by the tv in the diner part, look at the screen for about two or three minutes, and shrug. Rieekan vs Rieekan is kind of a boring squad match to see when you don't know the game I think.
15 minutes ago, miedomeda said:Also, some time ago I theorycrafted and played a couple games with lists very similar to those under the scope now and, while good and kinda fun, they felt nowhere near unstoppable, as I'm reading now, the reason being 1) the clunkiness of rebel bombers, that are forced to move as a blob with the slower bwings dictating the pace 2) being the all rounders they are, I found rebel bombers at a disadvantage over a dedicated imperial AS wing 3) the small numbers (actually fitting 8 squadrons is a challange) 4) the dependance on the survivability of the blob centre, ie the gallant/pelta providing the activations.
What has changed now, and how do these Worlds top 4 guys overcome those problems?
1)Fighter Coordination Teams now means you can move those B-Wings at roughly speed 3.5.
2)Biggs helped tremendously, I feel. That anti-squadron alpha strike just doesn't alpha any more when dealing with Biggs + other X-Wings. This goes double when those X-Wings have access to brace tokens, either through Jan or through being aces themselves.
3)6-7 fighters is still a decent number when they're all aces. Brace tokens gives a decent amount of survivability. Gallant Haven can make them literally unkillable against anything with fewer than 5 dice. Being aces, they have extra abilities which can make them deadlier and punch harder than their numbers suggest.
4a)Activations can come from flotillas, not just Gallant Haven. The real killer activations come from Yavaris. Being able to move those B-Wings distance 1 before double tapping thanks to FCTs is insane. 2 FCTs means you can move them roughly speed 3 before double tapping, assuming you keep them in range of Yavaris.
4b)Survivability of the blob center is helped by the nature of the fighter wing. It's very hard hitting clump of bombers. It will be placed between your heavy hitter and the very ships you're trying to kill, so you have to come into it in order to get at those capital ships. Norra helps out here. Her ability is only good for ~2 attacks, but that's 2 extra free damage (or roughly 1.5 extra bomber attacks) against your big hitter. A solid rebel bomber wing with Yavaris and Norra can down an ISD before that ISD can finish off Gallant Haven.
Edit: My numbers didn't really match up with yours very well. Let's fix that.
Edited by Valca12 minutes ago, miedomeda said:Sorry to quote myself guys, but none of this was answered and I'm still uncertain whether this is a case of mass hysteria or an actual game balance problem.
1) Fixed by FCT's and the ability to get those B-Wings places.
2) while more generalized, when you can't kill them or when you do they still stay on the board for a turn it doesn't matter.
3) Quality of shots matter here and with multiple rerolls those shot qualities are high.
4) that can be supplemented with Flotillas providing activations where needed.
Toryn Farr! She helps fighter blobs so much. She's pretty much a flight controller on her own and affects all squadrons in her radius
Just now, Sybreed said:Toryn Farr! She helps fighter blobs so much. She's pretty much a flight controller on her own and affects all squadrons in her radius
Yes, she is an absolute beast.
The Rieekan "Solution":
card addendum: whenever you use General Rieekan to save a ship through the end of the round, an Ozzel ISD (no upgrades) shows up from Hyperspace on the edge of the play area that your opponent controls.
Therefore, when playing Rieekan you must also bring enough ISDs. One for each ship you bring.
1 minute ago, CaribbeanNinja said:The Rieekan "Solution":
card addendum: whenever you use General Rieekan to save a ship through the end of the round, an Ozzel ISD (no upgrades) shows up from Hyperspace on the edge of the play area that your opponent controls.
Therefore, when playing Rieekan you must also bring enough ISDs. One for each ship you bring.
Most elegant solution I've seen. I can definitely see FFG supporting this one as well.
O
1 minute ago, CaribbeanNinja said:The Rieekan "Solution":
card addendum: whenever you use General Rieekan to save a ship through the end of the round, an Ozzel ISD (no upgrades) shows up from Hyperspace on the edge of the play area that your opponent controls.
Therefore, when playing Rieekan you must also bring enough ISDs. One for each ship you bring.
Oops forgot the squad part of the addendum: whenever a squad is "Rieekan'd" you must provide your opponent any imperial Rogue squadron they choose.
Welcome back to the game Boba Fett.