8 hours ago, Marinealver said:

I'd rather deal with broken combos than the problems we have over here.

It is a great day to be an Armada player.

There are people that cheat at Armada too. We have a guy who regularly cheats at Armada - Changes his command dials, moves ships if you look away, and I even recently caught him straight up changing blank red dice to double hits because he thought he could.... It's sad. Called him out on it and informed the local stores. He's on high watch now. (Caught him during a casual game, so there was no tournament to kick him out of).

38 minutes ago, Crabbok said:

There are people that cheat at Armada too. We have a guy who regularly cheats at Armada - Changes his command dials, moves ships if you look away, and I even recently caught him straight up changing blank red dice to double hits because he thought he could.... It's sad. Called him out on it and informed the local stores. He's on high watch now. (Caught him during a casual game, so there was no tournament to kick him out of).

yeah... I'm always suspicious of people switching commands when you don't look. I play regularly against a guy who always has the perfect command at the perfect time...

59 minutes ago, Sybreed said:

yeah... I'm always suspicious of people switching commands when you don't look. I play regularly against a guy who always has the perfect command at the perfect time...

Not even this. I think the most prevalent cheat is likely the jersey inch with squadron movement. I'm normally an easy-going guy, but I started to get pretty upset at a game in the Raleigh regional where one of my opponents was giving his X-wings a little extra boost. You often see it when they want the squadron to be on the other side of a ship but the base would land on the ship. They just give it the extra boost anyway to clear it. Yeah, that's totally how the game works. The same also had suspiciously perfect dials for his MC80 and AF2.

Edit: I'm more than willing to give people the benefit of the doubt, but on top of all this, the dude was also obnoxious and loud and yelling obscenely the entire game to a friend at the table next to him.

It's looking at a result like yours @JJs Juggernaut that I say that while yes there might be something you could add to the game to adjust it to Riekans presence, I feel like you still need to directly address how he functions. Or you'll just be adjusting to him in every wave from here on out.

I find it funny, we used to home that the game never made use of the whole board, but now with life boats and relay we complain that it does. Weird.

For those worried about flotilla, I respect it. They can be absolutely obnoxious. But I see that getting curtailed with new tools to combat them. Like ways to get accuracy out of black dice so gladiators can threaten them. A points increase to the game would also help because you would have enough to send a hunting party after lone flotillas.

Relay will just be a thing for now. It's really too soon to have decided much on it. Penny as hell sure but breaking? Not ready to declare that yet myself.

18 minutes ago, WuFame said:

Not even this. I think the most prevalent cheat is likely the jersey inch with squadron movement. I'm normally an easy-going guy, but I started to get pretty upset at a game in the Raleigh regional where one of my opponents was giving his X-wings a little extra boost. You often see it when they want the squadron to be on the other side of a ship but the base would land on the ship. They just give it the extra boost anyway to clear it. Yeah, that's totally how the game works. The same also had suspiciously perfect dials for his MC80 and AF2.

Edit: I'm more than willing to give people the benefit of the doubt, but on top of all this, the dude was also obnoxious and loud and yelling obscenely the entire game to a friend at the table next to him.

Lol at "the jersey inch"

19 minutes ago, WuFame said:

Not even this. I think the most prevalent cheat is likely the jersey inch with squadron movement. I'm normally an easy-going guy, but I started to get pretty upset at a game in the Raleigh regional where one of my opponents was giving his X-wings a little extra boost. You often see it when they want the squadron to be on the other side of a ship but the base would land on the ship. They just give it the extra boost anyway to clear it.

I also see this happen from time to time and it is a little obnoxious. It's not helped that measuring precisely for squadrons is often difficult due to clutter and that most players only have the cardboard distance ruler which presents further difficulties in terms of measuring precisely as it often can't fit well into cramped areas and thus hovers over the squadrons involved. Not super helpful.

When it comes to precise squadron movement, especially to see if they can clear a ship or another squadron, I recommend measuring from the rear of the squadron base to its intended destination. If it will fit at the end of its speed value in distance while measuring specifically from the rear of the squadron base, then it's good. If not, then no. I frequently see people measuring from the front (which is fine normally) in such circumstances, seeing that the front at least clears the hurdle in question, and then dropping the squadron in there, which can be slightly aggravating because the entire squadron needs to be able to clear the hurdle, not just the front.

9 hours ago, ovinomanc3r said:

A: Flotillas are the problem. They are cancerous.

B: Are you stupid? The problem is Riekan. He is OP.

C: Riekan OP? Haha! Did you notice how squadrons ruin this game?

And you ask for the nerf bat? Of course if we hit everything we will fix something.

I actually see these as all symptoms of the same problem, it just depends on how deep FFG wants to go to adjust it.

Rieeken and Relay are ubiquitous because squadrons are ubiquitous.
Squadrons are ubiquitous because flotillas are ubiquitous, and you might as well have the flotillas doing something.
Flotillas are ubiquitous because they are the best tool to bring more activations to fleets.

Rieeken probably does need a bit of a nerf himself, but I tend to agree with DrunkTarkin and Caldias, that he's not the overall issue, the issue is still flotillas, and I know how much you guys don't want to have that conversation again.

Edit: Just so I can keep stacking points on one comment, I initially thought changing the activation game would have been the best way to adjust the issue, but I'd be more interested in the more mild approach of having flotillas not count as ships for the purpose of tabling. I could see that shaking up the meta a lot. I think it would have to be coupled with ET double ram errata though, as it might make the ramming too viable.

48 minutes ago, WuFame said:

I actually see these as all symptoms of the same problem, it just depends on how deep FFG wants to go to adjust it.

Rieeken and Relay are ubiquitous because squadrons are ubiquitous.
Squadrons are ubiquitous because flotillas are ubiquitous, and you might as well have the flotillas doing something.
Flotillas are ubiquitous because they are the best tool to bring more activations to fleets.

Rieeken probably does need a bit of a nerf himself, but I tend to agree with DrunkTarkin and Caldias, that he's not the overall issue, the issue is still flotillas, and I know how much you guys don't want to have that conversation again.

Edit: Just so I can keep stacking points on one comment, I initially thought changing the activation game would have been the best way to adjust the issue, but I'd be more interested in the more mild approach of having flotillas not count as ships for the purpose of tabling. I could see that shaking up the meta a lot. I think it would have to be coupled with ET double ram errata though, as it might make the ramming too viable.

I still think the issue is squadrons not flotillas: Its not like 7+ MSU fleets with flotillas are destroying the game. Cmon guys look at the data and smell the flowers. Really, think about it. If flotillas were the issue, we'd be seeing Imp flots be a problem, we'd see ship based lists with tons of flots be a problem.

No, what we see are mass squadron lists for 6/top8. Squadrons are too viable.

Same with the Rieekan scapegoat tail-pinners. If rieekan was the issue we'd have Rieekan MSU, we'd have other Rieekan lists. No. We have Rieekan with flotillas with 134 squadrons with BCC.

Maybe all of its a problem, sure but the "Oh, squadrons are fine" really doesn't add up to any sort of logic. You're all also forgetting the preponderance of Regionals squadrons, and the fact that I told you this EXACT fleet type was going to show up in big numbers at worlds.

2 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

I still think the issue is squadrons not flotillas: Its not like 7+ MSU fleets with flotillas are destroying the game. Cmon guys look at the data and smell the flowers. Really, think about it. If flotillas were the issue, we'd be seeing Imp flots be a problem, we'd see ship based lists with tons of flots be a problem.

No, what we see are mass squadron lists for 6/top8. Squadrons are too viable.

Same with the Rieekan scapegoat tail-pinners. If rieekan was the issue we'd have Rieekan MSU, we'd have other Rieekan lists. No. We have Rieekan with flotillas with 134 squadrons with BCC.

Maybe all of its a problem, sure but the "Oh, squadrons are fine" really doesn't add up to any sort of logic. You're all also forgetting the preponderance of Regionals squadrons, and the fact that I told you this EXACT fleet type was going to show up in big numbers at worlds.

If the problem was simply that squadrons are too viable, wouldn't we see a variety at the top?

I think the problem is Rieekan squadrons. The answer to Rieekan squadrons (so far) is Rieekan squadrons. Rieekan squadrons versus Rieekan squadrons is just a brutal slog-fest of ugh.

9 minutes ago, CaribbeanNinja said:

If the problem was simply that squadrons are too viable, wouldn't we see a variety at the top?

I think the problem is Rieekan squadrons. The answer to Rieekan squadrons (so far) is Rieekan squadrons. Rieekan squadrons versus Rieekan squadrons is just a brutal slog-fest of ugh.

We do see a rather large variety of squadrons. Even that MC80 Ackbar list took a bunch of VCX. The squadron compliments of the Rieekan lists are actually relatively different too. If you mean we should see Imp squadrons, I'd agree that is a good counter point. And that might be pointing to Rieekan and flotillas being part of the issue. However, you DO see variety of squadrons. And all of these lists have a few things in common also: Always Yavaris, always 3 flotillas. Its the mc30 or Gallant Haven or Pelta that changes. As you notice, that last ship slot is somewhat irrelevant. GH can be substituted for Biggs/Jan in the squadrons, as described by others.

Is that enough seeing the whole view? I would like people to actually try counter-arguing their own arguments and providing data to support themselves instead of dismissing other people's opinions off hand just because they can.

Yeah my big problem is that we do not see a good Imperial counter squadron contingent. I want to see the rebel scum suffer!

Just now, CaribbeanNinja said:

Yeah my big problem is that we do not see a good Imperial counter squadron contingent. I want to see the rebel scum suffer!

Sloan, Quasar, etc. And let's see the rules and what it does before immediately dismissing it as not good enough against Rieekan squadrons.

I'm betting that Sloane will be reworded to indicate that she doesn't count as spending the token for the turn. That said, I don't see her having the impact on the Rieekan ball that some say she will. Most of those squadrons have brace, if anything.

2 minutes ago, geek19 said:

Sloan, Quasar, etc. And let's see the rules and what it does before immediately dismissing it as not good enough against Rieekan squadrons.

Yes, absolutely. I hope next year we are talking about Sloane being OP. (I can stomach that better.)

1 minute ago, CaribbeanNinja said:

Yes, absolutely. I hope next year we are talking about Sloane being OP. (I can stomach that better.)

I would be okay with this. And balls and balls of ties.

8 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

We do see a rather large variety of squadrons. Even that MC80 Ackbar list took a bunch of VCX. The squadron compliments of the Rieekan lists are actually relatively different too. If you mean we should see Imp squadrons, I'd agree that is a good counter point. And that might be pointing to Rieekan and flotillas being part of the issue. However, you DO see variety of squadrons. And all of these lists have a few things in common also: Always Yavaris, always 3 flotillas. Its the mc30 or Gallant Haven or Pelta that changes. As you notice, that last ship slot is somewhat irrelevant. GH can be substituted for Biggs/Jan in the squadrons, as described by others.

Is that enough seeing the whole view? I would like people to actually try counter-arguing their own arguments and providing data to support themselves instead of dismissing other people's opinions off hand just because they can.

@Blail BlergI have plenty of data...

My best data says you've been complaining about OP squads since Luke and Howl. ba-dum-bum-CHING

(Had to dude. Just too funny )

7 minutes ago, CaribbeanNinja said:

@Blail BlergI have plenty of data...

My best data says you've been complaining about OP squads since Luke and Howl. ba-dum-bum-CHING

(Had to dude. Just too funny )

Actually, i didn't have an opinion on this until wave3/4 BCC when I noticed BCC was going to really mess up the game.

In wave 1 2 I was of the opinion that squads were slightly too weak. So no, I've never complained about Luke or Howl. I think they're very fun.

(I know this was probably a joke, but in light of some of the things people have said about me and what some of them think I've said, I wanted to point these things out.)

4 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

Actually, i didn't have an opinion on this until wave3/4 BCC when I noticed BCC was going to really mess up the game.

In wave 1 2 I was of the opinion that squads were slightly too weak. So no, I've never complained about Luke or Howl. I think they're very fun.

(I know this was probably a joke, but in light of some of the things people have said about me and what some of them think I've said, I wanted to point these things out.)

The two smiley faces and drum riff didn't give it away?

Dude, I love that you carry the anti-squadron flag. (My total squadron count in 3 different regionals and Worlds lists is THREE TOTAL) It is your thing for sure. And I think you have valid arguments. But I think sometimes you go too far begging for data and taking things personally . I just worry that you take things so seriously.

I mean this in the best way possible. Life is way too short. Lighten up about all of this stuff.

9 minutes ago, CaribbeanNinja said:

The two smiley faces and drum riff didn't give it away?

Dude, I love that you carry the anti-squadron flag. (My total squadron count in 3 different regionals and Worlds lists is THREE TOTAL) It is your thing for sure. And I think you have valid arguments. But I think sometimes you go too far begging for data and taking things personally . I just worry that you take things so seriously.

I mean this in the best way possible. Life is way too short. Lighten up about all of this stuff.

I'm going to echo this.

10 hours ago, thecactusman17 said:

Anybody letting a Flechettes Raider hit this list is playing it terribly.

I think that this is quite unfair. Almost like saying if Demo hits that list, they are playing it wrong. Some things are going just to happen. There are something things that other good players can work around, even if another good player is doing their best to prevent it. Sure, getting the raider out can be a little more tricky, but it is totally viable, something I've been doing for months. There are things both sides can do to help mitigate the threat, this is true, but good play with a flechette raider is quite strong against Rieekan aces, especially since they don't have a lot of rogue, which can quickly spell a raider's doom.

5 hours ago, Crabbok said:

There are people that cheat at Armada too. We have a guy who regularly cheats at Armada - Changes his command dials, moves ships if you look away, and I even recently caught him straight up changing blank red dice to double hits because he thought he could.... It's sad. Called him out on it and informed the local stores. He's on high watch now. (Caught him during a casual game, so there was no tournament to kick him out of).

Where's Lord Vader when you need him?

Lord Vader we have some real scum that need to be eliminated, should I send the legions of storm troopers, or do you want to choke the *** yourself?

Just a question, do you think that becomes a topic worth a video in itself since it spans all games, or do you think you don't have enough significant input on that topic?

1 hour ago, thecactusman17 said:

I'm betting that Sloane will be reworded to indicate that she doesn't count as spending the token for the turn. That said, I don't see her having the impact on the Rieekan ball that some say she will. Most of those squadrons have brace, if anything.

I think she will have a significant impact on the zombie ball, but not directly through her ability.

Rather, players will be much less reluctant to field 134 points of fighters, taking solace in the fact that they have much higher utility with Sloane.

Imperials rejoice.

It's time to dig Rieekan an icy grave on Hoth.

Fleet 2050 (84/400)
===================
Raider I-class Corvette (44 + 23)
+ Wing Commander (6)
+ Ordnance Experts (4)
+ Rapid Launch Bays (6)
+ Flechette Torpedoes (3)
+ Instigator (4)
Ciena Ree (17)

Give it a try! You will see it works fine. And help those who have hard time keeping the raider alive.

Squadron token. Navigate command. Move into the enemy squadron ball (overlap every squadron is not needed and not recommended but this build is less vengeful with that mistake). Does he bring intel? Don't worry. Let him place their squadron the best he can and then place Ciena away from the enemy intel and engaging all you can. Thanks to the small size he won't do too much. Shoot with Ciena (+swarn), counter with Ciena (+swarm). How many squadrons will he need to wipe out Ciena and still killing the raider? Hardly enough with just one ship activation. Then shoot.

Of course you need patience to fly it properly.

Pair with the classic Kallus-Impetuous and decimate enemy wings.

From a different pov:

What do you think about that? (It just came to my mind)

Fleet 2050 (92/400)
===================
Victory I-class Star Destroyer (73 + 19)
+ Agent Kallus (3)
+ H9 Turbolasers (8)
+ Warlord (8)

75% of dealing 2 damage to uniques. You still having your 1 guarantee. And could go up to 3 damage. Add RT

Not saying it is good. Just a thought.

If it were possible to move the Raider and then do anti-squad, that ship would work for one round. It is simply too short of range and fragile to do anything but get blow up by the squadrons. If it had something that allowed anti-squad attacks after movement it would be usable instead of free points. Intel is a bridge too far for this ship to overcome.

If anyone is curious what Negative Play Experience (NPE) does to a game, go see what happened to Netrunner. FFG to their credit have been trying to fix Netrunner. They seem to ignore Armada which speaks to how small the game is for them.

The straight of it is this, all that stuff on the board, the squads and flotillas, brings a NPE. It makes the game bulky and too long and the NPE causes threads like this to be very long. That is the game mechanic you need to know about and be concerned about. If you don't think NPE isn't a big deal, again, go see what happened to Netrunner.

Without the activation spam the Finals would have gone to a round 6. I do believe we would have a different camp had it gone to all 6 rounds. Since both decided (or rather needed) to bring that spam to the Finals table, I don't feel sorry for either one.

The solution is simple, if it has a scatter token, its pts count as squadron pts. This reduces the NPE to a point it would be hardly noticeable and these angry threads will go away.