What are you guys talking about, Reeikan in this archetype is not for the ships he is almost 100% for the aces. The whole thing with this setup is that it can project itself across the board and play aggressively or very defensively and not lose a lot of anything. Your biggest risk point wise is typically losing squads and zombie Biggs is a big deal here.

Ergo, making Reeikan affect only ships pretty much insta-balances out this archetype without it being a nerf sledge hammer and without affecting reeikan archetypes that don't lean so hard on unkillable escorts

16 minutes ago, Hastatior said:

Ergo, making Reeikan affect only ships pretty much insta-balances out this archetype without it being a nerf sledge hammer and without affecting reeikan archetypes that don't lean so hard on unkillable escorts

Until the Ramtastic lists then leapfrog forward.

24 minutes ago, Lyraeus said:

Until the Ramtastic lists then leapfrog forward.

Flotillas don't count for tabling.

Ships can't ram more than once during their activation.

Simple rules changes that don't require changing card text, reduce the reliability of fighter heavy lists, and tackle concerns about ram-centric zombie fleets. All without having to create specific nerfs for specific cards or errating specific cards.

The most targeted change you might have to make is to have Yavaris count any movement a squadron has done that turn before it fires.

29 minutes ago, Valca said:

Flotillas don't count for tabling.

Ships can't ram more than once during their activation.

Simple rules changes that don't require changing card text, reduce the reliability of fighter heavy lists, and tackle concerns about ram-centric zombie fleets. All without having to create specific nerfs for specific cards or errating specific cards.

Please double check the 11 CR90's list or the ones that have engine techs that can double ram a turn

Lets say you make the rule "ships can't Overlap more than once an activation". Does that include obstacles? What if I did engine techs and ended up overlapping again? What if I hit a ship then dropped back down on an obstacle?

What you consider since is not so simple without rewriting many rules.

1 minute ago, Lyraeus said:

Please double check the 11 CR90's list or the ones that have engine techs that can double ram a turn

Second line: Ships can't ram more than once during their activation.

1 minute ago, Valca said:

Second line: Ships can't ram more than once during their activation.

but with engine techs they can?

Just now, Valca said:

Second line: Ships can't ram more than once during their activation.

Reread my comment.

"Ramming" is not a rule. It is what we call "Overlapping a Ship". However it is still an Overlap

Just now, Sybreed said:

but with engine techs they can?

He is saying to make that line a rule

Just now, Lyraeus said:

Reread my comment.

"Ramming" is not a rule. It is what we call "Overlapping a Ship". However it is still an Overlap

Colloquially the same thing, you know what I meant.

Just now, Lyraeus said:

He is saying to make that line a rule

so, what happens if they engine tech and overlap? They just... go back to their position and everyone is happy? Or... ramming prevents ET to take effect?

Just now, Sybreed said:

so, what happens if they engine tech and overlap? They just... go back to their position and everyone is happy? Or... ramming prevents ET to take effect?

That is the question. How do you word it? When you figure that out, how will that change other effects?

Oh and @Valca, if we make those changes, not only did you have to rewrite the rules you had to still fix Rieekan

Just now, Lyraeus said:

Oh and @Valca, if we make those changes, not only did you have to rewrite the rules you had to still fix Rieekan

I don't see Rieekan as a problem after those changes are made.

Just now, Valca said:

I don't see Rieekan as a problem after those changes are made.

Sure. Maybe but I doubt it. You still get a Rieekan turn

@Green Knight had an idea where ET exhausts after an overlap which sounded fair.

2 minutes ago, Caldias said:

@Green Knight had an idea where ET exhausts after an overlap which sounded fair.

I am honestly surprised that this rule hasn't been instituted in the Errata. It is a clear and, many believe, needed fix.

Just now, ryanabt said:

I am honestly surprised that this rule hasn't been instituted in the Errata. It is a clear and, many believe, needed fix.

It'd be nice if it were only on overlap with a ship. If you land on an asteroid, you should be able to keep going.

4 minutes ago, Valca said:

It'd be nice if it were only on overlap with a ship. If you land on an asteroid, you should be able to keep going.

I actually like that it is with asteroids as well. The only exception should be chart officer IMO.

How about, "if a player overlaps a ship during the maneuver, his/her opponent may choose and exhaust an upgrade on that ship." Take away engine teching (and quantum storm) double taps, while also opening up the possibility of punishing an opponent for poor maneuvering or stalling (i.e., using a flotilla to keep your MC80 from moving forward). Imagine getting your ECMs exhausted just in time to take an ISD front arc. Fleets would start flying differently, and large ship pile-ups wouldn't last quite so long, or wouldn't happen as often.

How did this start out at Rieekan and end up at engine techs?

My opinion on Rieekan after experiencing the field at worlds and playing a nasty and well flown Rieekan aces list is that, "this too shall pass." It absolutely no worse than Demo was in its prime, and I sat next to Michael Gernes during the whole final, and he is a smart guy who loves the game and I bet you dollars to donuts he noticed both fleets were Rieekan and that the top 8 was dominated by Rebels.

If something else won worlds it would immediately become suspect of a nerf.

Right now CC aces were a huge buff to Rieekan that puts him at Demo levels of strong, which he wasn't before CC (Still strong, but not as defining as he is now) and we have yet to see something that swings the hammer against it. Maybe it's Quasar? Maybe it's a new campaign revolving around adding ship uogrades that gives them something that neuter Rieekan a bit.

I don't know what it is, but I know it's coming.

I agree, the next wave will set new things in motion once again.

I've been of the opinion for about a year now that Riekan was too good to start and was only going to become more so with each release. It won last year's worlds too didn't it? I remember because that year the final match was between two lists almost identical to me and my friends, Dodonna and Riekan. And just like our meta, Riekan won.

As my buddy who plays him quite well points out to me, (and I consider him an amazing player, better than me for sure, and would have loved to see how he would have done at worlds this year considering his current list I think was identical to the runner up) in Armada the core strategic goal is to eliminate your opponents key ships before they remove yours. And that's regardless of the objective as those just change what in your list is actually the key ship or ships. Riekan throws that core concept completely out. You CAN'T in MAJORITY cases remove vital targets before they remove you. Even the best play against that kind of effect will still cost you likely more than you should pay to get the results you need.

Further, from the math side (and I feel myself throw up a little when I have to say that) Riekan buys you essentially your whole list back for one turn. 400 points for the price of a tenth of that. Hell, you can be in a currently 'tabled' board state and still win by virtue of his effect, iirc that was never erratad. In Armada it's reductive component comparitive value. Almost all war games are. The numbers you start the turn with are removed as you use yours to remove your opponents. The best application of one versus the other can determine a victory. A maneuvering system with distance requirements simulates the strategy portion but the rest is still math, varied by random input from dice. And Riekan negates that for the entire game.

Put it this way. Think back to when you were learning to play. Now most if not all of you should remember that moment when you realized just how important it is to get the drop on the enemy squadrons with your own no matter which faction you played. Remember how absolutely critical that first effective squadron command could be? Remember that look on the new guys face when he learned the error of his ways for not readying a squad command? Think back to how important it was to get a squad lock down on an enemy Yavaris or to get your own off? Yeah. That. Super important, right? Because that tips the scales off for how the rest of the game, AKA that reductive component comparison, will go. And Riekan mocks you for it. Despite how important that lesson was, it means nothing to his ability. That's the big huge thing that he ignores.. And that's what make him broken, he prohibits your opponent from getting ahead in the comparison of reducing components.

I don't see squadrons as the problem. They wouldn't be excelling if not for Riekan, and if it was them I'd expect more Dodonna fleets too and they aren't here.

I don't see flotillas as the problem because while omnipresent, they're in all the lists as much as in the Riekan aces. They should cancel out.

Having contemplated the tournament results, weighed against my own areas results, the thread and reading it all the way through for two days, I'm ready to cast my own personal vote that Riekan is in fact a broken component of the game that disturbs the balance of it's play. And the Riekan card directly needs addressed as opposed to a work around fix or altering some other component which does not seem to have the same impact across the meta.

Unfortunately at this point I don't have any constructive offering as to how you could change him so that he isn't broken but still provides the same feel of his current iteration. That's just how deep in the mechanics of the game his ability reaches.

Just say that if you overlap a ship before ET you can't ET.

1 hour ago, ForceSensitive said:

I've been of the opinion for about a year now that Riekan was too good to start and was only going to become more so with each release. It won last year's worlds too didn't it? I remember because that year the final match was between two lists almost identical to me and my friends, Dodonna and Riekan. And just like our meta, Riekan won.

Also Rieekan lost last year if my memory serves me.