7 minutes ago, LunarSol said:

The Vong were actually quite interesting to me in that it made me realize that "evil invading aliens" isn't actually a storyline that works in Star Wars. Despite its sci-fi asthetics, a big part of what makes the Star Wars work is that everyone is so familiar with the strange and fantastic things that exist in the universe that stories about the unknown are rarely as compelling as a bar full of wildly unique aliens that just shrug when someone cuts off an arm with a laser sword.

In a lot of ways, the Vong are the equivalent of tacking the ID4 White House explosion onto the end of The West Wing.

Don't you mess with my West Wing. I'll gut ya.

1 minute ago, Koing907 said:

Immune to the force because lazy writing.

Cenobites in space.

Overused biotechnology schtick.

No thanks.

In fairness, the vong were likely made immune to the force because of how overpowering every force user was becoming. As with every other threat, you could just send Luke to fix it.

The writing in the old legends fiction was lazy long before the vong. The writers wrote themselves into a corner, the vong were meant to extricate them from that. They were poorly implemented.

The biotech was fine by itself. As was the pain worshipping. Force immunity fine as well. Combining ALL of this together was too much.

I find R. A. Salvatore to be generally unreadable, and anything he's responsible for I have a knee-jerk dislike for.

I love Cenobites. Deeply. Upsettingly. Cenobites in space doesn't work, for proof just watch Hellraiser: Bloodline.

From a gameplay perspective, I see a problem with a new faction equipped almost entirely with faction-exclusive-everything. It doesnt develop the others at all.

Boring, boring, boring...

Considering that Episode 7 killed off Han and not Chewie.

Well unless you want to kill him off too.

But wait a minuet, if Han can have his death, and Chewbacca can have an option to die, then...

The main thing with the Vong is that they've already been done right in SG:A with the Wraith.

If Star Wars did it now it'd look like a rip off.

19 hours ago, RebelRogue said:

I loved the vong war. I've read the whole series of books 3 times through (any individual books many more times). I'd love to see it.

Thank you!!! i was starting to think i was the only one with all those "nope" :-)

19 hours ago, LunarSol said:

Salvatore's first book is really hard to stomach. It basically reads like kids playing fantasy with rules they make up as they go:

"I Force Push you!"
"Nu-uh, I'm immune to the Force! I'm going to swing at you with my snake whip!"
"I'll chop it in half with my LIGHTSABER"
"Nu-uh, my snake is immune to lightsabers when it turns into its rock form"

Pretty much every encounter reads like this one way or another. The anti-Jedi stuff is the most blatant, but the Coralskippers are probably worse. They're so specifically tuned to take down X-Wing's its almost a parody.

If you've read the whole saga or known the lore around it, you would know that the Vong prepared for the invasion a long time before it happened. They knew the Jedi before they came and they were prepared for almost everything the galaxy would throw at them. Their biological technology was highly adaptative.

As for the writing skills of the author, i wouldnt know how good/bad it was in english. Back them i wasnt fluent enough in english to read books. The french translation made it look like it was well written.

12 minutes ago, Thormind said:

Thank you!!! i was starting to think i was the only one with all those "nope" :-)

If you've read the whole saga or known the lore around it, you would know that the Vong prepared for the invasion a long time before it happened. They knew the Jedi before they came and they were prepared for almost everything the galaxy would throw at them. Their biological technology was highly adaptative.

As for the writing skills of the author, i wouldnt know how good/bad it was in english. Back them i wasnt fluent enough in english toe read books. The french translation made it look like it was well written.

I said earlier I liked em too! I've read the NJO (as well as most of the rebellion era and later books) multiple times. NJO has a lot of great stories in it, even if it does have others that are weaker.

45 minutes ago, That Blasted Samophlange said:

In fairness, the vong were likely made immune to the force because of how overpowering every force user was becoming. As with every other threat, you could just send Luke to fix it.

The writing in the old legends fiction was lazy long before the vong. The writers wrote themselves into a corner, the vong were meant to extricate them from that. They were poorly implemented.

The biotech was fine by itself. As was the pain worshipping. Force immunity fine as well. Combining ALL of this together was too much.

As rpg master, I can say that making a narrative in the SW universe is hard because of the jedi powers.
Both in the new cannon and the EU (more even in the EU) the jedis are much better at combat, but also better pilots, better mechanics, better diplomats, better thiefs, better ... everything.

Or your history is about a one an only protagonist, or all of them are jedi, or none of them are, otherwise things become more and more difficult as time goes for the narrator viewpoint. Of course, you still can build a theme about various protagonist with an stellar powerfull one, but is difficult.

I can understand the "force nullifier" enemy, is an easy way of put in the same level several important characters, some of them not jedi.
The all threatening menace from beyond the unknown is also a well known element to disrupt a tired status quo (or to give a new enemy to the winner faction if you close with an undisputed win the previous act).
The all-biological enemy is also a solution to give something "new" to a universe like the star wars one. A tyranid/zerg menace could be something new, as an all-tech one (borg/reapers).

All the elements of the Vong made sense, just they implemented them in a really awfull way, narrative and aesthetically.

33 minutes ago, Thormind said:

If you've read the whole saga or known the lore around it, you would know that the Vong prepared for the invasion a long time before it happened. They knew the Jedi before they came and they were prepared for almost everything the galaxy would throw at them. Their biological technology was highly adaptative.

Umm... they're not... you know... real, right? They didn't prepare for years. They were written poorly and given the "prepared for years" excuse to excuse the fact they were written poorly.

Noooooooo!

6 minutes ago, LunarSol said:

Umm... they're not... you know... real, right? They didn't prepare for years. They were written poorly and given the "prepared for years" excuse to excuse the fact they were written poorly.

Darn, i really though they were :-) It's probably a question of opinion here. To me it's quite logical to prepare appropriately if you are invading a territory. One of the most recognized book on the subject, The Art of War, seems to indicate i would be correct saying so...

Your argument here could apply to almost any fiction book/film. At some point the author will adapt his story to fit the orientation he has chosen or the way he planned to develop it.

7 minutes ago, Thormind said:

Darn, i really though they were :-) It's probably a question of opinion here. To me it's quite logical to prepare appropriately if you are invading a territory. One of the most recognized book on the subject, The Art of War, seems to indicate i would be correct saying so...

Your argument here could apply to almost any fiction book/film. At some point the author will adapt his story to fit the orientation he has chosen or the way he planned to develop it.

1 hour ago, That Blasted Samophlange said:

In fairness, the vong were likely made immune to the force because of how overpowering every force user was becoming. As with every other threat, you could just send Luke to fix it.

The writing in the old legends fiction was lazy long before the vong. The writers wrote themselves into a corner, the vong were meant to extricate them from that. They were poorly implemented.

The biotech was fine by itself. As was the pain worshipping. Force immunity fine as well. Combining ALL of this together was too much.

It even has a name when youre painted into a corner and take the somewhat lazy way out, Deus ex machina

• Yuuzhan Vong - Skirmish at Helska IV reenactment (first crack at painting minis)

1 minute ago, Thormind said:

Your argument here could apply to almost any fiction book/film. At some point the author will adapt his story to fit the orientation he has chosen or the way he planned to develop it.

Sure; what I'm arguing is not the value of supporting the events of your story its that the support does not absolve the end result of its failings. The problem with the Vong is not that they lack backstory but that the ultimate villain created comes across as childish in the way it trumps everything that makes Star Wars Star Wars. They ironically come across as inorganic and unnatural because almost everything that defines them is in service of taking away things that define the heroes. It's the boring "monster from nowhere that's stronger in every way" kind of writing that destroyed comics in the 90's and drags Star Wars into a similar death spiral of angst and cynicism.

17 minutes ago, Thormind said:

To me it's quite logical to prepare appropriately if you are invading a territory.

How does one prepare to counter a mystical force that doesn't exist for you? The very idea of the Force tends to eliminate anything that counters it, especially anything living because it's supposed to permeate all living things. So the idea that a fully biological race, using biological tech can counter the Force defies everything we know about the Force.

Plus the whole thing came of completely as a childish "No you didn't 'cause <insert reason here>" rather than a well thought out reason for it. Because again given what the Vogn are, it makes even less sense for them. A fully cybernetic force Ala the Necrons from 40k being immune to it would make a lot more sense.

IDK

But I'm going with the herd on this one.

Like @LunarSol stated, if it's true, "It's the boring "monster from nowhere that's stronger in every way" kind of writing that destroyed comics in the 90's and drags Star Wars into a similar death spiral of angst and cynicism."

AND, come on man, we already have the JUMPMASTER that IS a "boring monster from nowhere that's stronger in every way" .... that has dragged our beloved "Star Wars" game "into a similar death spiral of angst and cynicism."

8 minutes ago, LunarSol said:

Sure; what I'm arguing is not the value of supporting the events of your story its that the support does not absolve the end result of its failings. The problem with the Vong is not that they lack backstory but that the ultimate villain created comes across as childish in the way it trumps everything that makes Star Wars Star Wars. They ironically come across as inorganic and unnatural because almost everything that defines them is in service of taking away things that define the heroes. It's the boring "monster from nowhere that's stronger in every way" kind of writing that destroyed comics in the 90's and drags Star Wars into a similar death spiral of angst and cynicism.

Now that's a solid argument. I can undertand why you would not like them from that perspective. The thing that made you dislike them is the same that made me appreciate the story. Maybe i don't have enough sci fi culture but to me they appeared as an original oponent design and the Jedi finally had a real challenging situation. Something else than lasers vs lasers or force threat or mega weapon, etc.

IMO resuscitating the Emperor or having a Jedi turn dark for Xth time or having another Republic vs Empire story was far more cheezy and boring than what was done with the Vong...

5 minutes ago, Thormind said:

Now that's a solid argument. I can undertand why you would not like them from that perspective. The thing that made you dislike them is the same that made me appreciate the story. Maybe i don't have enough sci fi culture but to me they appeared as an original oponent design and the Jedi finally had a real challenging situation. Something else than lasers vs lasers or force threat or mega weapon, etc.

IMO resuscitating the Emperor or having a Jedi turn dark for Xth time or having another Republic vs Empire story was far more cheezy and boring than what was done with the Vong...

Agreed. The endless Republic vs Empire got old. Was actually refreshing to see them work together for once. I feel like they didn't do too badly on jedi turning tot he dark side. It happened, but I feel like it WOULD happen when you're training a bunch of jedi (especially when you only barely know what you're doing, you're taking adults to start training with all their flaws, and you're training as many as you can at once), and it wasn't all the time. I actually liked when Jaina started sliding dark in the NJO (and was stopped), and Jacen became one o fmy favorite characters in the Legacy of the Force

24 minutes ago, VanorDM said:

How does one prepare to counter a mystical force that doesn't exist for you? The very idea of the Force tends to eliminate anything that counters it, especially anything living because it's supposed to permeate all living things. So the idea that a fully biological race, using biological tech can counter the Force defies everything we know about the Force.

It was explained in the saga and it did make sense. They used to be force sensitive and were living in symbiosis with their planet. They were cut from the force when they destroyed their home world. The reason why it happened is explained, as well as why they hate non biological technology and why they worship pain.

They were from another galaxy. No one even knew if the force was present outside of the galaxy. The Jedi did act accordingly (ie they were surprised when they dicovered the fact).

28 minutes ago, VanorDM said:

The very idea of the Force tends to eliminate anything that counters it, especially anything living because it's supposed to permeate all living things. So the idea that a fully biological race, using biological tech can counter the Force defies everything we know about the Force.

Well, the ysalamiri (I think?) in the first Thrawn trilogy projected a "no Force" bubble, and I didn't really have a problem with that.

My issue with the first book was mostly that the prose and tone was just Godawful. I didn't get far enough to take much issue with concepts or plot.

9 minutes ago, Thormind said:

They were from another galaxy. No one even knew if the force was present outside of the galaxy. The Jedi did act accordingly (ie they were surprised when they dicovered the fact).

Wasn't it revealed in the end that they originated from the same galaxy, not actually from another one?

7 minutes ago, Thormind said:

Now that's a solid argument. I can undertand why you would not like them from that perspective. The thing that made you dislike them is the same that made me appreciate the story. Maybe i don't have enough sci fi culture but to me they appeared as an original oponent design and the Jedi finally had a real challenging situation. Something else than lasers vs lasers or force threat or mega weapon, etc.

IMO resuscitating the Emperor or having a Jedi turn dark for Xth time or having another Republic vs Empire story was far more cheezy and boring than what was done with the Vong...

The problem to me was that they felt the need to continue to escalate the story. Everything had to threaten the whole galaxy or at least the Republic was always in jeopardy. All the new Jedi had to jump to whatever the current crisis was rather than simply be weakened by the fact that they honestly weren't that many of them to cover the Republic.

To me, the thing the prequels did right (poorly) was make its villains a faction that easily fit into the universe by virtue of not needing to be the bad guys. The Trade Federation, for all its faults, was the kind of entity much like the Black Suns that could threaten in a way that made sense. They weren't going to blow up a solar system with the latest unstoppable super weapon, but they could sure cripple a planet by stopping its commerce.

By the same token, the Jedi didn't always need the next Palpatine (at one point quite literally). They would have been better off moving away from the extremes of the Sith and introducing more "not Jedi" Force wielders. You don't always need a Vader; sometimes that crime boss's bodyguard is just a self taught prodigy who got a hold of one of those lightsabers left lying around after the purge. In general, the best stories of the EU did just that.

The point is; the universe is at its best when it treats the galaxy as a world and the worlds as cities and those cities having conflicts that cities have. Pulling in alien invaders from beyond the stars makes it a very different kind of fictional universe and not one that plays to the strengths of this galaxy far, far away.

1 minute ago, Jeff Wilder said:

Well, the ysalamiri (I think?) in the first Thrawn trilogy projected a "no Force" bubble, and I didn't really have a problem with that.

My issue with the first book was mostly that the prose and tone was just Godawful. I didn't get far enough to take much issue with concepts or plot.

They did talk about the Ysalamiri in the books. At first the Jedi though the Vong were using a similar ability to block the force.

8 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:

Well, the ysalamiri (I think?) in the first Thrawn trilogy projected a "no Force" bubble, and I didn't really have a problem with that.

I never really cared for that either. I'd have actually preferred it to be more of the opposite; where the ysalamiri were such a bright spot in the Force that they acted more as a blinding/deafening effect to those that were sensitive to the Force.

Honestly, given their biotech origins, that would have probably been a more interesting direction for the Vong as well.

This thread is so funny.

"I think we all agree we'd like to see the Vong, right?"

"WRONG!"

Is this the one thing that the majority of the forum agrees on?