20 minutes ago, Mirith said:

This reminds me of a DragonCon panel: "Harry Potter and the 7 Ajahs", which was a bunch of people trying to assign Harry Potter characters to the Wheel of Time White Tower Ajahs, and Wheel of Time characters to the Harry Potter houses. I went because my friend really wanted to go, though the point to it was head scratching to me. And people were very passionate about it. Lots of arguing, though I can't remember who they were arguing about.

That would be a tough one. I guess you can cut down the numbers a bit though. The Aes Sedai are all female, so you could cut out all the male HP characters; and 99% of the named WoT characters would end up in a single house, by virtue of the fact that they're so minor and forgettable (that was how the Sorting Hat decided someone should be in Hufflepuff, right?).

12 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

That would be a tough one. I guess you can cut down the numbers a bit though. The Aes Sedai are all female, so you could cut out all the male HP characters; and 99% of the named WoT characters would end up in a single house, by virtue of the fact that they're so minor and forgettable (that was how the Sorting Hat decided someone should be in Hufflepuff, right?).

They decided to ignore the whole gender thing. Maybe 80-90% of the characters named were straightforward. Then arguments about the remaining 10-20%. We only really covered the big names. I think a majority of the main WoT characters were "Gryphyndor" or however its spelled.

On ‎3‎/‎05‎/‎2017 at 11:29 PM, Mirith said:

I don't think that means what you think it means.

Depends on how bad your opponent is.

21 hours ago, Kubernes said:

Hey, remember Kamigawa block? Seems like a potential fit. Heck, even Portal: Three Kingdoms might be able to help. Or does that show my age?

It narrows it down a bit.

3 hours ago, Mirith said:

You can, but they don't really follow colors. Where is "Barbarian Horsewomen" on the color wheel?

1 hour ago, Robin Graves said:

Exactly. Barbarian anything will usually be found in red. I said red seeks freedom, but that's more of a general statement: red hates being told what to do. One could argue that the Unicorn's insistence on strange foreign customs is an expression of red, while their acceptance of who they are and the understanding of their place among the Great Clans is more of a green ethos.

23 hours ago, Builder2 said:

No, it just shows that you assume games with Asian themes must be comparable with one another.

I'm not assuming anything but a possible example to possibly base colors/mechanics on. No need to be a jerk in this forum.

Anyway, looking at single color to clan and which aspect they represent

Lion: White (weenie)

Phoenix: White (laws aspect)

Scorpion: Black (power at cost)

Dragon: Green (balance and growth)

Unicorn: Red (freedom and action)

Crane: Hmmm Blue (control/manipulation)

Crab: Could be described in either white (resistance and the ye olde wall theme) or Green (growth and possible effective, mid-sized creature mix)

Two color combinations of the clans

Lion: Red/White (Impluse and Morality <=as in Honor) RW also had a weenie thing going on.

Phoenix: White/Blue (Laws/Order and Knowledge)

Scorpion: Blue/Black (Omnipotence and Omniscience) - Maybe a bit much but that might what they think ;p / Red could also be argued because of the possible theme about damaging your opponent but also having a cost

Dragon: Green/Blue (Growth/Balance and Knowledge)

Unicorn: Red/Green (Freedom and Survival)

Crane: White/Blue (Opportunity and Control)

Crab: Green/White (Modification/Strength and Resistance)

3 hours ago, Kubernes said:

I'm not assuming anything but a possible example to possibly base colors/mechanics on. No need to be a jerk in this forum.

I didn't intend for the comment to be taken personally. I was trying to attack the argument's provinces directly, but rereading it I see I got yours involved as well. I apologize.

Pfft.

Phoenix are Blue, splashing Red and a smidgin of White. The elements of White that fit them fit most of Rokugan. Lore, contemplation, and serenity, married to the occasional unstable explosive. Blue with some red and some white in the form of dual-color blue/white control stuff.

Lion are white/red. Boros. Aspects of the Naya-flavored stuff in Alara Reborn. Ajani Vengeant. Et cetera.

Dragon are blue, splashing black and white. Serene enlightenment with the odd side of insane warrior monks, alchemists, and skilled swordsmen.

Scorpion are Black/Green, just like any poison token deck anyone ever ran.

Crab are Green with a pile of artifacts. Maybe a teeny bit of blue. Big creatures, skilled craftsmen, and so on. The least nature-y green deck ever.

Unicorn are red/green- Mounted horse nomads with the odd bit of weird intense nature stuff.

Crane are trash. But they're trash that plays a Bant-inspired "build up one awesome champion while the rest of your weenies talk him up" white/blue/green

I think Crab has more of a white/red faction as they have a mix of stalwart defenders and crazed berserkers.

Although, more than trying to do a direct translation I think it would be better to make indirect parallels. Mostly because magic only has one real win condition (there are some cards that change this. I have lost to a battle of wits deck before) L5R has 3 possible victory conditions two of which can be achieved without ever having any combat happen. So you could say how each clan has similarities to a color in magic but that's about as useful a comparison as comparing tools to a hammer.

The hard part is that we don't even have a full understanding of how each clan with achieve there victory conditions. I would say that the only clan we have a clear picture of so far is scorpion. We have seen that have a lot of ways of not only using dishonor but even manipulating where honor goes. But on the other hand we only known that crab are defensive and can protect themselves from effects that remove them from combat. Dragon and Phoenix have a yin and yang thing going on where on gets bonuses from claimed rings while the other gets bonuses from unclaimed rings. We can talk about themes all day but from what I know of magic players its how they win that's important and right now I don't think that its possible to enplane.

7 hours ago, Cold Iron1 said:

I think Crab has more of a white/red faction as they have a mix of stalwart defenders and crazed berserkers.

Although, more than trying to do a direct translation I think it would be better to make indirect parallels. Mostly because magic only has one real win condition (there are some cards that change this. I have lost to a battle of wits deck before) L5R has 3 possible victory conditions two of which can be achieved without ever having any combat happen. So you could say how each clan has similarities to a color in magic but that's about as useful a comparison as comparing tools to a hammer.

The hard part is that we don't even have a full understanding of how each clan with achieve there victory conditions. I would say that the only clan we have a clear picture of so far is scorpion. We have seen that have a lot of ways of not only using dishonor but even manipulating where honor goes. But on the other hand we only known that crab are defensive and can protect themselves from effects that remove them from combat. Dragon and Phoenix have a yin and yang thing going on where on gets bonuses from claimed rings while the other gets bonuses from unclaimed rings. We can talk about themes all day but from what I know of magic players its how they win that's important and right now I don't think that its possible to enplane.

The idea of comparison is to there to help players visualize or learn the game through terms they already know or recognize. Like saying that Fate is essentially mana.

Dishonor being something like poison counters where if you get enough you force the opponent to lose sort of works. I suppose Honor gain can be something like Felidar Sovereign where you need 40 or more life to win.

14 minutes ago, Kubernes said:

The idea of comparison is to there to help players visualize or learn the game through terms they already know or recognize. Like saying that Fate is essentially mana.

Dishonor being something like poison counters where if you get enough you force the opponent to lose sort of works. I suppose Honor gain can be something like Felidar Sovereign where you need 40 or more life to win.

There is, though, the alternative, resonance-based approach, to consider: You start by explaining that Legend of the Five Rings is a samurai fantasy, and suddenly concepts like replacing "life" with "honor," swapping mana sources for "fate" represented by little sakura petals, these things begin to take on a meaning beyond their gameplay application, which in turn should make them easier to grasp - this is more advice I've taken straight from MaRo of Magic Design. In short, complex game concepts make more sense when their meaning resonates with the player. I imagine this is basically the same reason story problems are great for early math studies.

46 minutes ago, Builder2 said:

There is, though, the alternative, resonance-based approach, to consider: You start by explaining that Legend of the Five Rings is a samurai fantasy, and suddenly concepts like replacing "life" with "honor," swapping mana sources for "fate" represented by little sakura petals, these things begin to take on a meaning beyond their gameplay application, which in turn should make them easier to grasp - this is more advice I've taken straight from MaRo of Magic Design. In short, complex game concepts make more sense when their meaning resonates with the player. I imagine this is basically the same reason story problems are great for early math studies.

While I understand that, it also skews the view. Honor isn't exactly life. It is important, and has some similar mechanics of going up and down and losing when you hit 0, but your opponent is probably not normally attacking your Honor like you do in Magic. However, the statement "Honor is sort of like your life in Magic, except if you hit 25, you win." is still a valid way to introduce people. But then your "creatures" don't directly affect your "life" nor do they hit it in an attack.

Fate as explained as "mana" is more accurate, except that it sticks around. However, every time I think of how I'd explain it in my head I use the words "Sort of like..." before I say it.

Admittedly, my opinion is skewed, since I've played enough different board games/card games that I usually understand at least the basic mechanics pretty quickly without having to assign it to a particular model in my head.

4 minutes ago, Mirith said:

Honor isn't exactly life.

Heresy! Honor IS life! =D

7 minutes ago, Kakita Shiro said:

Heresy! Honor IS life! =D

Is that what magic players are doing. Once the goblin punches them in the face enough, they commit seppuku?

24 minutes ago, Mirith said:

Is that what magic players are doing. Once the goblin punches them in the face enough, they commit seppuku?

Nah, you're thinking of a control deck.

"I will destroy/negate the effects of all your cards until you concede in shame and frustration" is absolutely a victory condition in Magic.

3 hours ago, Kubernes said:

The idea of comparison is to there to help players visualize or learn the game through terms they already know or recognize. Like saying that Fate is essentially mana.

Dishonor being something like poison counters where if you get enough you force the opponent to lose sort of works. I suppose Honor gain can be something like Felidar Sovereign where you need 40 or more life to win.

I see what you are getting at but most of this seems to be comparing clans to colors.

7 hours ago, Mirith said:

Is that what magic players are doing. Once the goblin punches them in the face enough, they commit seppuku?

Yes, because they are ashamed of being beaten by a goblin.

On 5/3/2017 at 11:59 PM, slowreflex said:

Guys, slating MTG isn't going to help any. Fact is, MTG has an enormous player base and we should make it as easy as possible for them to get into L5R so the player base of L5R can grow. When you have any dominant game in the market, making a transition guide to your new game is always a sound marketing decision. Which game is better is subjective and not really relevant in this regard.

The gateway game idea has been tried many game companies , and never seems to work just look at the d20 bandwagon. you may get one or two but, it is never worth the effort you put into it. The truth is most people gravitate to a game because they like a combination of things about it such as setting, game-play, player environment, distribution model,etc.

In my experience you do not attract new player based on whats the same about your game but, based on what is different. I played MTG for many years what attracted me to L5R was the setting and the gold on the strongholds (Hate getting mana screwed). If you tell me that the game is like Magic then why would I not just play Magic. To get new players I find it is more effective to find out what they do not like about the game they are play and not what they do like.

If they find it boring that MTG doesn't have much of a setting tell them about the 20+ years of story L5R background has.

If they hate getting mana screwed that tell them about the fate system and how you start with resources in play.

If they don't like buying a case to get one card tell them about the LCG distribution model.

If they are not fond of the MTG player base introduce them to the local L5R player.

The thing is you are never going to get players to switch to a new game unless is has something new to offer them.

I have found that the best way to get new players it to go to my local game store with the rest of the L5R local players and just play where we can be seen by other gamers. Then offer to let them in on a game or two if they show interest.

1 hour ago, tenchi2a said:

The gateway game idea has been tried many game companies , and never seems to work just look at the d20 bandwagon. you may get one or two but, it is never worth the effort you put into it. The truth is most people gravitate to a game because they like a combination of things about it such as setting, game-play, player environment, distribution model,etc.

In my experience you do not attract new player based on whats the same about your game but, based on what is different. I played MTG for many years what attracted me to L5R was the setting and the gold on the strongholds (Hate getting mana screwed). If you tell me that the game is like Magic then why would I not just play Magic. To get new players I find it is more effective to find out what they do not like about the game they are play and not what they do like.

The whole d20 thing was ruined by too many different publishers saturating the market. It sounds great to have anyone publish material for a system, but quality just tends to decline. The same can be said about the glut of ccgs in the 90s. Yeah, there are some gems and a whole lot more chaff.

As for games that played like MtG and why you wouldn't play it, the typical market strategy was to point how they were different and capitalize on that. There was also that idea that the game usually 'fixed' some aspect that might have been seen as a negative in Magic.

Sorry for the bump, but I actually found this to be a good resource for new L5R players that haven't played the CCG or knowing very little of the lore behind the great clans.

When I look at the clans now after doing a ton of research into the game and the clan playstyles, I don't think of them in terms of colors but more like Ravnica guilds. I'm an MTG player and veteran of many of FFG's other LCGs (Netrunner, SW, Conquest, GoT2.0), and I find it funny that some people think that the playstyles of these clans cannot be described using MTG terms (colors, keywords, sets, themes).

To some of the old school CCG stubborn diehards out there, it's almost like you forgot which game came first. I find it incredibly easy to describe this game to players when I use MTG terms, mainly because the color wheel is not deterministic and more of a guide for personality traits. I think the failure to describe this game using MTG colors simply means you don't have enough exposure to Magic in general. Also, it's super embarrassing to see some of these guys talk about control, tempo, mill, evasion, ramp or other elements and then say this game has nothing in common with MTG. Shameful display!

With that said, here are some links for other players like me who are coming into the LCG and wants some knowledge into which clan you'll feel comfortable in:

http://tappedout.net/mtg-forum/standard/guilds-strenghts-weaknesses-and-play-styles/

https://teamcovenant.com/general/legend-of-the-five-rings-the-clans

https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1797552/speculation-clans-playstyles

On ‎5‎/‎5‎/‎2017 at 3:34 PM, Robin Graves said:

Yes, because they are ashamed of being beaten by a goblin.

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