5 minutes ago, Tonbo Karasu said:

If Yokuni is actually Togashi, I hope he's the same physical body that fell from the heavens 1,000 years ago.

I always prefered the faking his own death and showing up as someone else idea rather then him taking over someone elses body (that seemed more Phoenix to me)

2 minutes ago, Jedi samurai said:

I always prefered the faking his own death and showing up as someone else idea rather then him taking over someone elses body (that seemed more Phoenix to me)

Well, it is kind of what Shiba did, without the 'taking over' because Shiba was that kind of guy.

1 minute ago, Jedi samurai said:

Which makes no sense! You think he going to create a division in his own clan because...........reasons.

Because he is a prescient planner, and by doing so, it allows his followers to be in the right place at the right time to do the right things to bring about the Second Day of Thunder and defeat Fu Leng.

12 minutes ago, sndwurks said:

Because he is a prescient planner, and by doing so, it allows his followers to be in the right place at the right time to do the right things to bring about the Second Day of Thunder and defeat Fu Leng.

Hes also efficent. There is no good reason why splitting his clan that way is the best/only way to get his clan where he needs them to be. He's know its coming since day 1. He could slowly influence the leaders and sensei's of the different families so that belief became the foundation of the clan. Having to create a heretical sect within his own clan would only be needed if he did nothing for 1,000 to gets his clan where he needs them to be.

12 minutes ago, Tonbo Karasu said:

Well, it is kind of what Shiba did, without the 'taking over' because Shiba was that kind of guy.

Didn't he go into the sword?

4 minutes ago, Tonbo Karasu said:

If Yokuni is actually Togashi, I hope he's the same physical body that fell from the heavens 1,000 years ago.

Yes, please. The original version (as detailed in The Way of the Dragon 1st edition, among other places): Togashi was indeed 1,000 years old, he is a literal dragon, has known that he will die on the 2nd Day of Thunder but accepts it since it is the only chance he can see to defeat his dark brother, he asked the Thunder Dragon to 'get with' the grieving Hida (the original Kami, Hida) so that his line would continue, etc. etc.

The retcon that Rich Wulf created: Togashi wasn't really a true dragon, he destroyed the souls of special members of his followers to body-hop into them every generation, he couldn't really seethe future, and oh, by the way, every single Fortune and Kami hates him and calls him a pathetic coward.

Aside from being wholly unnecessary, the retcon was rather insulting. The original Togashi was flawed and certainly not what you'd call 'nice', but he was a hero in his own way. The retcon version was an awful, wretched piece of excrement. Also, other story elements and characters made no sense at all anymore, especially Togashi Hoshi, his son. If Togashi wasn't a semi-immortal dragon, why was his son a half-dragon half-man super-powerful creature that could shapeshift and lived severa hundred years without needing to body-hop?

2 minutes ago, Togashi Gao Shan said:

Yes, please. The original version (as detailed in The Way of the Dragon 1st edition, among other places): Togashi was indeed 1,000 years old, he is a literal dragon, has known that he will die on the 2nd Day of Thunder but accepts it since it is the only chance he can see to defeat his dark brother, he asked the Thunder Dragon to 'get with' the grieving Hida (the original Kami, Hida) so that his line would continue, etc. etc.

The retcon that Rich Wulf created: Togashi wasn't really a true dragon, he destroyed the souls of special members of his followers to body-hop into them every generation, he couldn't really seethe future, and oh, by the way, every single Fortune and Kami hates him and calls him a pathetic coward.

Aside from being wholly unnecessary, the retcon was rather insulting. The original Togashi was flawed and certainly not what you'd call 'nice', but he was a hero in his own way. The retcon version was an awful, wretched piece of excrement. Also, other story elements and characters made no sense at all anymore, especially Togashi Hoshi, his son. If Togashi wasn't a semi-immortal dragon, why was his son a half-dragon half-man super-powerful creature that could shapeshift and lived severa hundred years without needing to body-hop?

reasons.

Just now, Jedi samurai said:

reasons.

Heh. Yeah. The writers decided to have Hoshi leave to go wander around the Heavens so they didn't have to deal with the inconsistency.

It would be great if this reboots version of Hoshi - if he exists this time - will end up as Champion for a long while, and have more character development.

7 hours ago, Togashi Gao Shan said:

.....a tie-in to reintroduce a different version of the Spider.

Spider is my 2nd favorite clan. If, they merged both Dragon & Spider into one clan that would be fascinating. Think about the range... enlightenment to shadowlands... diverse.

13 minutes ago, Togashi Gao Shan said:

Heh. Yeah. The writers decided to have Hoshi leave to go wander around the Heavens so they didn't have to deal with the inconsistency.

It would be great if this reboots version of Hoshi - if he exists this time - will end up as Champion for a long while, and have more character development.

I just hope they change how he looks. I never liked the top half human, bottom half dragon look.

It would be interesting if Togashi still has his future vision, but someone has been clouding or distorting his visions: think like the tachyons to doc Manhattan in watchmen.

Maybe it's the radical sect, maybe it's the same thing that the phoenix notice messing with the kami, maybe the rise of the Spider, or maybe it's all 3....

I wonder if the Kolat are involved...

1 minute ago, profparm said:

It would be interesting if Togashi still has his future vision, but someone has been clouding or distorting his visions: think like the tachyons to doc Manhattan in watchmen.

Maybe it's the radical sect, maybe it's the same thing that the phoenix notice messing with the kami, maybe the rise of the Spider, or maybe it's all 3....

The dark side clouds everything... jest aside, I liked the idea that Togashi could not look beyond his own intervention. Or at least that is how I always perceived him being so passive, so he could keep the visions of the future.

I must say that all balance is okay, but dragon are isolationist by nature, how do they explain that they are politically as well as militarily strong if their courtier are far less represented than other clans?

HMMMMMMMMMMMMM

6 minutes ago, Drudenfusz said:

The dark side clouds everything... jest aside, I liked the idea that Togashi could not look beyond his own intervention. Or at least that is how I always perceived him being so passive, so he could keep the visions of the future.

John Wick (the original writer for L5R and creator of Togashi) and Ree Soesbee (Wick's successor) both stated that with rare exceptions, that was pretty much how Togashi's visions worked.

9 minutes ago, BlindSamurai13 said:

I wonder if the Kolat are involved...

Well, in the first edition RPG stuff, it mentioned a few of the rare direct interventions by Togashi over the 1,000 years of the Empire involved the kolat. For instance, they kept trying to infiltrate the Dragon clan, and Togashi would slaughter them in an eye-blink. A while after he was gone, some kolat did occasionally recruit a member of the clan.

47 minutes ago, Togashi Gao Shan said:

Yes, please. The original version (as detailed in The Way of the Dragon 1st edition, among other places): Togashi was indeed 1,000 years old, he is a literal dragon, has known that he will die on the 2nd Day of Thunder but accepts it since it is the only chance he can see to defeat his dark brother, he asked the Thunder Dragon to 'get with' the grieving Hida (the original Kami, Hida) so that his line would continue, etc. etc.

The retcon that Rich Wulf created: Togashi wasn't really a true dragon, he destroyed the souls of special members of his followers to body-hop into them every generation, he couldn't really seethe future, and oh, by the way, every single Fortune and Kami hates him and calls him a pathetic coward.

Aside from being wholly unnecessary, the retcon was rather insulting. The original Togashi was flawed and certainly not what you'd call 'nice', but he was a hero in his own way. The retcon version was an awful, wretched piece of excrement. Also, other story elements and characters made no sense at all anymore, especially Togashi Hoshi, his son. If Togashi wasn't a semi-immortal dragon, why was his son a half-dragon half-man super-powerful creature that could shapeshift and lived severa hundred years without needing to body-hop?

I think that makes way more sense. I don't know whether they were retconed too but all the other Kami were blatantly magical. Like how Doji made an armor out of sea breeze or Akodo collapsed a mountain with a war cry. Hantei's son also was implied to be more than human, living for centuries and maybe even ascending into the heavens by himself. If those elements were kept I don't understand why Togashi should be treated differently.

18 minutes ago, Dovla said:

I must say that all balance is okay, but dragon are isolationist by nature, how do they explain that they are politically as well as militarily strong if their courtier are far less represented than other clans?

HMMMMMMMMMMMMM

Not many courtiers, but good ones.

5 minutes ago, Doji Tori said:

I think that makes way more sense. I don't know whether they were retconed too but all the other Kami were blatantly magical. Like how Doji made an armor out of sea breeze or Akodo collapsed a mountain with a war cry. Hantei's son also was implied to be more than human, living for centuries and maybe even ascending into the heavens by himself. If those elements were kept I don't understand why Togashi should be treated differently.

Nope, the other Kami were kept intact. Aside from the examples you gave, there is also Shiba's soul sorta kinda hanging around and partially empowering each successive Phoenix Champion. that wasn't changed, either. Why did Wulf decide dthat only Togashi needed de-mythologizing? -shrug-

2 minutes ago, Togashi Gao Shan said:

Nope, the other Kami were kept intact. Aside from the examples you gave, there is also Shiba's soul sorta kinda hanging around and partially empowering each successive Phoenix Champion. that wasn't changed, either. Why did Wulf decide dthat only Togashi needed de-mythologizing? -shrug-

Because Togashi's continued existence in the mortal world meant no other Dragon Clan character could get meaningful stories.

5 minutes ago, Jedi samurai said:

Not many courtiers, but good ones.

In theory, it's mostly that the Kitsuki are such super-sleuths (to an admittedly somewhat silly degree at times). While most of the Empire ignores and or / laughs at the 'Kitsuki Method' of using investigation, forensic evidence, etc. instead of nothing but testimony, it still gives the more politically savvy Dragons very useful information, and that's quite an advantage.

1 minute ago, Kakita Shiro said:

Because Togashi's continued existence in the mortal world meant no other Dragon Clan character could get meaningful stories.

There were countless ways for the last remnants of Togashi's soul to leave the mortal realm without also ret-conning everything about him.

Just now, Togashi Gao Shan said:

There were countless ways for the last remnants of Togashi's soul to leave the mortal realm without also ret-conning everything about him.

This wasn't a remnant of his soul. His entire mind was co-habitating in Satsu.

Just now, Kakita Shiro said:

This wasn't a remnant of his soul. His entire mind was co-habitating in Satsu.

Again, though, they could have had him leave without:

A) Having every Kami and Fortune crap all over him

and

B) changing a lot about who and what he was.

Personally, I think that when Hitomi ascended, Togashi's soul / mind should have departed then, as well. Hoshi could have been Champion for longer than he was, and get more development - which wasn't really held back because of his dad being sort of still around. they just didn't bother to do much with him other than hook up with a (mystically) special lady and produce an heir.

3 minutes ago, Togashi Gao Shan said:

Again, though, they could have had him leave without:

A) Having every Kami and Fortune crap all over him

and

B) changing a lot about who and what he was.

Personally, I think that when Hitomi ascended, Togashi's soul / mind should have departed then, as well. Hoshi could have been Champion for longer than he was, and get more development - which wasn't really held back because of his dad being sort of still around. they just didn't bother to do much with him other than hook up with a (mystically) special lady and produce an heir.

They didn't change much about Togashi (just the tamashii bit), they just provided a new perspective BY having the Seven Fortunes pass judgement on him.

5 minutes ago, Kakita Shiro said:

This wasn't a remnant of his soul. His entire mind was co-habitating in Satsu.

I'm not going to get into a discussion of my opinion of how the final removal of Togashi was handled, but I apparently feel obligated to note that this was itself a retcon of the original version that Satsu was a reincarnation of Togashi.

To me, it seems like for the most part that Dragon Clan story was better received by Dragon Clan players when Togashi or a reincarnated Togashi was in charge, and not terribly well-received when he wasn't (the mad Hitomi arc, the Satsu-is-being-possessed arc, or the relative lack of clan plot after Satsu got depowered). Maybe the lesson is to just go with the concept, rather than fighting it.