So, FFG has this regarding what the Dragon clan is dealing with at the beginning of this new version of the story:

In the secluded mountains of the far north, the Dragon Clan—beset by a failing birthrate and the surging popularity of a potentially dangerous and heretical sect of Shinseism—looks to the guidance of its enigmatic champion, Togashi Yokuni, to restore the clan’s enlightened way of life.

I'll save speculating on the falling birthrate stuff until another post. I mainly wanted to comment on "the surging popularity of a potentially dangerous and heretical sect of Shinseism".

I wonder if this heretical sect will tie in a bit to the Brotherhood of Shinsei - at least in a story or two - assuming they still exist in some recognizable form in the 'new' Rokugan.

My other main guess is that this could have something to do with Kokujin - again, assuming that some version of him exists. If it is Kokujin, I hope he is handled better than the last time around, and I especially hope that the entire 'Tamashii' rubbish is never a thing this time. Oh, and maybe they could have a better name than 'Kokujin' (it basically means literally 'black man', and is rather awkward, to put it mildly).

There are a number of potentially dangerous and heretical sects of Shinseism that spring to my mind:

• Moon worshippers
• Fudo
• Order of the Spider

Or they could be mining history a bit (and the Imperial Histories) and having a monk-led peasant uprising. Are any of them wearing yellow scarves?

2 minutes ago, Tonbo Karasu said:

There are a number of potentially dangerous and heretical sects of Shinseism that spring to my mind:

• Moon worshippers
• Fudo
• Order of the Spider

Or they could be mining history a bit (and the Imperial Histories) and having a monk-led peasant uprising. Are any of them wearing yellow scarves?

Those are all solid possibilities, too. Onnatangu (Moon) cultists could tie into Hitomi later if she's around this time. and having Fu Leng monks even without Kokujin could work as a tie-in to reintroduce a different version of the Spider.

Fudo...well, if they go that route, I hope it's done a bit differently than AEG handled it. Some of the writers insisting that Fudo-ism was basically identical to real-life Bhuddism was highly aggravating.

They could be using it to set up Kokujin - if he is leading this new sect that will ultimately lead to the madness.

I actually suspect it probably ties into the Prophecies of Uikku and the Doom of the Great Clans.

We already have a Doomed Shugenja previewed. What is the heretical sect of Shinseism was the belief that the Second Day of Thunder is coming, and that Fu Leng (who was defeated long ago, and who certainly could never, would never return) will return and possess the form of the Last Hantei, after the fall of the Last Akodo? If your society is predicated on a 1000 years of a dynasty established by the defeat of an evil god, the idea that said evil god will return and threaten the world again would be pretty heretical.

3 minutes ago, sndwurks said:

I actually suspect it probably ties into the Prophecies of Uikku and the Doom of the Great Clans.

We already have a Doomed Shugenja previewed. What is the heretical sect of Shinseism was the belief that the Second Day of Thunder is coming, and that Fu Leng (who was defeated long ago, and who certainly could never, would never return) will return and possess the form of the Last Hantei, after the fall of the Last Akodo? If your society is predicated on a 1000 years of a dynasty established by the defeat of an evil god, the idea that said evil god will return and threaten the world again would be pretty heretical.

Except the Dragon Clan leader KNOWS it will happen. He is/has taken steps to combat that evil when it does return, which he knows it will. The heretical sect would have the support/backing of the Dragon champion - making them not heretical but legit.

1 minute ago, Jedi samurai said:

Except the Dragon Clan leader KNOWS it will happen. He is/has taken steps to combat that evil when it does return, which he knows it will. The heretical sect would have the support/backing of the Dragon champion - making them not heretical but legit.

There is nothing in the description of the Clan that says Yokuni is not secretly part of this sect. Or was responsible for its creation by preparing a vessel and downloading all his fears and regrets into it, to ready himself for the Second Day of Thunder.

Which is the origin story of Kokujin (which I truly hope they rename).

3 minutes ago, sndwurks said:

There is nothing in the description of the Clan that says Yokuni is not secretly part of this sect. Or was responsible for its creation by preparing a vessel and downloading all his fears and regrets into it, to ready himself for the Second Day of Thunder.

Which is the origin story of Kokujin (which I truly hope they rename).

I would assume if the Kami/Clan Champ was part of it, it wouldn't be a concern to the Clan and seen as dangerous......it would just be the clan.

9 minutes ago, Jedi samurai said:

Except the Dragon Clan leader KNOWS it will happen. He is/has taken steps to combat that evil when it does return, which he knows it will. The heretical sect would have the support/backing of the Dragon champion - making them not heretical but legit.

That's the old Yokuni. There's no reason the new Yokuni won't have a new personality, goals, or motives.

Heck, this new secret clan of monks might just be the tattooed men.

We don't know yet. But it will probably be a good idea to stop judging the new story based on what happened in the old. I'm sure there will be callbacks and easter eggs, but the new story will be its own thing. Otherwise they wouldn't have bothered to do the reboot.

I think the Spider might be gone for good, but I really liked the Spider Monks, and hope that this could be at least their sohei in some new form.

1 minute ago, Drudenfusz said:

I think the Spider might be gone for good, but I really liked the Spider Monks, and hope that this could be at least their sohei in some new form.

Yea more clan interactions decreases the need to have such a clan of villain. We already have the Scorpion for that !

Just now, Jedi samurai said:

I would assume if the Kami/Clan Champ was part of it, it wouldn't be a concern to the Clan and seen as dangerous......it would just be the clan.

If Yokuni unintentionally created it by creating Kokujin, then it would be dangerous and heretical. And you are assuming that Yokuni actually keeps his Clan informed of... well... anything. If you look through the Imperial Histories, and you look at the early setting information in the RPG, and you look at a lot of the depictions of Togashi later on, you get a picture of an EXTREMELY hands off Champion. He appears, rarely, and tells someone to do something. Then disappears. He does not take an active hand in the Empire until the years leading up to the Second Day of Thunder, or after that.

A bunch of mystics start ascribing to the belief that the world is ending, and it spreads fast among the Dragon Clan, because their Champion takes no hand to stop it. This belief is, literally, heretical to the Brotherhood and the Empire as a whole. However, it seems like the Dragon Clan itself was primed for this heresy to spread and take root. From the outside, this appears to be VERY dangerous, because people who believe the world is ending do dangerous things.

And this is all according to Yokuni's plan.

And if we are going to see the Spider? They are going to be the force behind the new Shadowlands Horde attacking the Crab Clan, and will the the descendants of Fu Leng's original mortal followers, lead by Hantei Daigotsu after the death of Hantei XXXVIII.

4 minutes ago, Gaffa said:

That's the old Yokuni. There's no reason the new Yokuni won't have a new personality, goals, or motives.

Heck, this new secret clan of monks might just be the tattooed men.

We don't know yet. But it will probably be a good idea to stop judging the new story based on what happened in the old. I'm sure there will be callbacks and easter eggs, but the new story will be its own thing. Otherwise they wouldn't have bothered to do the reboot.

No reason to believe he, the history and flavor of the Dragon are completely different. Having their Kami around, manulipating events was a pretty defining thing for the Dragon for a long time - so much so when he died the Dragon were kind left without a purpose.

I agree the new story won't happen exactly the same way - I don't assume the Satsu/Yakamo thing happens for example - but I also think it is safe to assume the set up the same/very similar. They said one advantage of going back in time to this point is that many of the fan favourite characters exist in this time period. At certain point, the changes you make make the setting no longer L5R and something else.

3 minutes ago, Drudenfusz said:

I think the Spider might be gone for good, but I really liked the Spider Monks, and hope that this could be at least their sohei in some new form.

I agree- this is where I think Kokujin comes in - leading the dangerous sect and ultimately we might see a split with a bunch of Dragon Monks going with him and forming (in spirit and image, if not name) the Spider Monks.

4 minutes ago, sndwurks said:

If Yokuni unintentionally created it by creating Kokujin, then it would be dangerous and heretical. And you are assuming that Yokuni actually keeps his Clan informed of... well... anything. If you look through the Imperial Histories, and you look at the early setting information in the RPG, and you look at a lot of the depictions of Togashi later on, you get a picture of an EXTREMELY hands off Champion. He appears, rarely, and tells someone to do something. Then disappears. He does not take an active hand in the Empire until the years leading up to the Second Day of Thunder, or after that.

A bunch of mystics start ascribing to the belief that the world is ending, and it spreads fast among the Dragon Clan, because their Champion takes no hand to stop it. This belief is, literally, heretical to the Brotherhood and the Empire as a whole. However, it seems like the Dragon Clan itself was primed for this heresy to spread and take root. From the outside, this appears to be VERY dangerous, because people who believe the world is ending do dangerous things.

And this is all according to Yokuni's plan.

And if we are going to see the Spider? They are going to be the force behind the new Shadowlands Horde attacking the Crab Clan, and will the the descendants of Fu Leng's original mortal followers, lead by Hantei Daigotsu after the death of Hantei XXXVIII.

He doesn't have to keep them informed. But it makes no sense to create a group within his clan to do what he knows has to be done, and then let that group been seen dangerous and heretical. It would be counter productive to turn the people doing the actual work into the villains within your clan, and allow the rest of your clan to see them as such and potentially work against them. And I know how Togashi runs the run, I know the Mirumoto basically run the clan because he is so hands off, but that doesn't mean he'd let a bad situation be created, grow and fester.

You're assume the description is by an outsider who doesn't really know whats going on. I don't read it like that at all.

1 minute ago, Jedi samurai said:

You're assume the description is by an outsider who doesn't really know whats going on. I don't read it like that at all.

I think all the descriptions of the Clans read like they are from an outsider viewpoint, because they are meant for new players to the game to find what they like. And remember, Togashi might do exactly as you described, because he knows in the long run, it will have the highest chance of the outcome that he requires. It warns his Clan of the danger coming without making his Clan complicit in the heresy of preparing for it, making it impossible for them to prevent it while at the same time setting the pieces in place to react when it starts coming to fruition.

In other words, Togashi sees the future, and those writing him can justify anything and everything after the fact by pointing at the outcome and going "It had to be this way!"

2 minutes ago, sndwurks said:

I think all the descriptions of the Clans read like they are from an outsider viewpoint, because they are meant for new players to the game to find what they like. And remember, Togashi might do exactly as you described, because he knows in the long run, it will have the highest chance of the outcome that he requires. It warns his Clan of the danger coming without making his Clan complicit in the heresy of preparing for it, making it impossible for them to prevent it while at the same time setting the pieces in place to react when it starts coming to fruition.

In other words, Togashi sees the future, and those writing him can justify anything and everything after the fact by pointing at the outcome and going "It had to be this way!"

but they aren't written in a way that indicates they should be questioned. Those descriptions give us the status quo of the clans - tells us were they are and what their current issues are. Not really good for new players if they are given information and then have to start questioning it right away.

ok - how does splitting his clan help him achieve his goal? In the secluded mountains of the far north, the Dragon Clan—beset by a failing birthrate and the surging popularity of a potentially dangerous and heretical sect of Shinseism—looks to the guidance of its enigmatic champion, Togashi Yokuni, to restore the clan’s enlightened way of life. - Your original point was the heretical sect are the ones within the clan actually predicting the 2nd Day of Thunder, what is the benefit in having hte majority of you clan believe this is wrong and those who believe it are a problem that the clan champion needs to deal with? what in the benefit to Togashi in setting up this conflict within his own clan?

3 minutes ago, Jedi samurai said:

ok - how does splitting his clan help him achieve his goal? In the secluded mountains of the far north, the Dragon Clan—beset by a failing birthrate and the surging popularity of a potentially dangerous and heretical sect of Shinseism—looks to the guidance of its enigmatic champion, Togashi Yokuni, to restore the clan’s enlightened way of life. - Your original point was the heretical sect are the ones within the clan actually predicting the 2nd Day of Thunder, what is the benefit in having hte majority of you clan believe this is wrong and those who believe it are a problem that the clan champion needs to deal with? what in the benefit to Togashi in setting up this conflict within his own clan?

"The path that is not questioned is not the true path. The path that is not challenged is not the true path. To find the wisdom they will need in the days ahead, they must have strength. They cannot find their strength if they do not question what is true."

Seriously, I think you are making Togashi a benevolent, kind deity who cares about his followers. This is the guy who nearly starved himself to death, along with Mirumoto and Agasha, until Shinsei came along and went "Dude, you're being stupid. Quit it." Sitting on a mountain for 1000 years to "know the truth of history" is not going to make him MORE inclined to care about the short term welfare of his followers. They are, literally, a tool to be used to see the Empire saved and destiny fulfilled. For all we know, he is creating this problem specifically to make his Clan demand his guidance, just so he can deny it to them, have them figure it out themselves, just so they can be in the right place at the right time to do what must be done.

1 minute ago, sndwurks said:

"The path that is not questioned is not the true path. The path that is not challenged is not the true path. To find the wisdom they will need in the days ahead, they must have strength. They cannot find their strength if they do not question what is true."

Seriously, I think you are making Togashi a benevolent, kind deity who cares about his followers. This is the guy who nearly starved himself to death, along with Mirumoto and Agasha, until Shinsei came along and went "Dude, you're being stupid. Quit it." Sitting on a mountain for 1000 years to "know the truth of history" is not going to make him MORE inclined to care about the short term welfare of his followers. They are, literally, a tool to be used to see the Empire saved and destiny fulfilled. For all we know, he is creating this problem specifically to make his Clan demand his guidance, just so he can deny it to them, have them figure it out themselves, just so they can be in the right place at the right time to do what must be done.

I think you're had an idea when you first read it that doesn't really hold up.

There is a different between him being a benevolent, kind deity who cares about his followers (to an extent he does, that was the point of the Shinsai story, he isn't seperate from people and the world and what he does affects others) and someone letting his clan tear itself apart because..........reasons. Not much of a tool if the ones who know whats going on are seen as HERETICS by the rest of the clan, that need to be dealt with. Doesn't do him much good if the Mirumoto decide to go wipe out the heretics, now all the people who know what was really going on (in your scenario) are gone.

39 minutes ago, Jedi samurai said:

No reason to believe he, the history and flavor of the Dragon are completely different. Having their Kami around, manulipating events was a pretty defining thing for the Dragon for a long time - so much so when he died the Dragon were kind left without a purpose.

This would be an exact reason to make it so Yokuni is NOT Togashi. The clan needs a purpose outside of the leader. I personally hope they eliminate the Togashi is still around thing.

1 minute ago, JRosen9 said:

This would be an exact reason to make it so Yokuni is NOT Togashi. The clan needs a purpose outside of the leader. I personally hope they eliminate the Togashi is still around thing.

They might, but I personally wouldn't bet on them removing a defining element of the clan during a period they went back to, at least in part, because people liked the game during that period.

I think it will be more a combo of 1) The story being different. We don't see them running to the 2nd Day of Thunder (if there even is one) and the status quo and the characters we get at the launch of the game will be around for a long time. 2) The story being different. If/when we get to the 2nd day of Thunder, maybe Yokuni doesn't die. Maybe he does but Togashi moves to another body, maybe he dies before the 2nd Day of Thunder and the clan's new leader had guide them etc... 3) If, ultimately at some point, the story is the same/similar and the 2nd Day of Thunder is over and the Kami is gone, the new creative armed with the knowledge of what happened to the Dragon in the past will be prepared and have something ready for them.

7 hours ago, Togashi Gao Shan said:

So, FFG has this regarding what the Dragon clan is dealing with at the beginning of this new version of the story:

In the secluded mountains of the far north, the Dragon Clan—beset by a failing birthrate and the surging popularity of a potentially dangerous and heretical sect of Shinseism—looks to the guidance of its enigmatic champion, Togashi Yokuni, to restore the clan’s enlightened way of life.

I'll save speculating on the falling birthrate stuff until another post. I mainly wanted to comment on "the surging popularity of a potentially dangerous and heretical sect of Shinseism".

I wonder if this heretical sect will tie in a bit to the Brotherhood of Shinsei - at least in a story or two - assuming they still exist in some recognizable form in the 'new' Rokugan.

My other main guess is that this could have something to do with Kokujin - again, assuming that some version of him exists. If it is Kokujin, I hope he is handled better than the last time around, and I especially hope that the entire 'Tamashii' rubbish is never a thing this time. Oh, and maybe they could have a better name than 'Kokujin' (it basically means literally 'black man', and is rather awkward, to put it mildly).

It appeared in the CCG, near the end, they were starting to give the Spider Monks the Kokujin family name. Stealing that idea and creating a new/different sect of evil/mad monks that all take Kokujin's name would/could be pretty cool.

16 minutes ago, Jedi samurai said:

There is a different between him being a benevolent, kind deity who cares about his followers (to an extent he does, that was the point of the Shinsai story, he isn't seperate from people and the world and what he does affects others) and someone letting his clan tear itself apart because..........reasons. Not much of a tool if the ones who know whats going on are seen as HERETICS by the rest of the clan, that need to be dealt with. Doesn't do him much good if the Mirumoto decide to go wipe out the heretics, now all the people who know what was really going on (in your scenario) are gone.

Except that if Togashi is really behind them, then they can't be wiped out and the Mirumoto are doomed to failure by trying to do so, and Togashi (as Yokuni) allows this to occur, knowing doing so will make the Mirumoto willing to side with the rising heroes of the Clan Wars when the time comes.

Again, the problem with a prescient character is that everything can be justified, narratively, after the fact.

However, at this point, I think it is fairly clear that you and I are not going to agree on this, and we are both arguing in a vacuum of sufficient evidence to prove either of us wrong. Your argument hinges upon Togashi not allowing the Prophecies of Uikku / the Doom of the Dragon / the Second Day of Thunder to potentially tear his Clan apart, while bringing forward no evidence that Fudo, Order of the Spider, etc will be the "potentially dangerous and heretical sect of Shinseism" the Dragon will have to deal with. My argument hinges on the fact that saying the Second Day of Thunder is coming would be seen as heretical by the majority of Rokugan, as would ALL the Dooms of Uikku.

However, for all we know? What we may actually be facing is the Path of Man and the rise of the Kolat / Asako Henshin.

If Yokuni is actually Togashi, I hope he's the same physical body that fell from the heavens 1,000 years ago.

1 minute ago, sndwurks said:

Except that if Togashi is really behind them, then they can't be wiped out and the Mirumoto are doomed to failure by trying to do so, and Togashi (as Yokuni) allows this to occur, knowing doing so will make the Mirumoto willing to side with the rising heroes of the Clan Wars when the time comes.

Again, the problem with a prescient character is that everything can be justified, narratively, after the fact.

However, at this point, I think it is fairly clear that you and I are not going to agree on this, and we are both arguing in a vacuum of sufficient evidence to prove either of us wrong. Your argument hinges upon Togashi not allowing the Prophecies of Uikku / the Doom of the Dragon / the Second Day of Thunder to potentially tear his Clan apart, while bringing forward no evidence that Fudo, Order of the Spider, etc will be the "potentially dangerous and heretical sect of Shinseism" the Dragon will have to deal with. My argument hinges on the fact that saying the Second Day of Thunder is coming would be seen as heretical by the majority of Rokugan, as would ALL the Dooms of Uikku.

However, for all we know? What we may actually be facing is the Path of Man and the rise of the Kolat / Asako Henshin.

Which makes no sense! You think he going to create a division in his own clan because...........reasons.

I do think the heretical sect will be something along those lines, and ultimately the dragon story (at least one of hte first) will be dealing with that. I also think it'd be cool if thats where they put Kokujin.

"Secluded in the northern mountains, the Dragon rarely focus on the internal politics of Rokugan, instead turning their eyes to the future and the mysterious visions of their founder, the Kami Togashi."

This could be taken different ways, but I'm betting it means what it implies: 'Yokuni' is the original Tohgashi, just as he wa sin the original version.