OK, we have an on going debate about a rule in my local area and i'm getting sick and tierd of it and I want to lay the law down.

We have some people that think they can hover the maneuver templates during the planning phase just over the ship"one maybe two inches" to check if they can make the move with out bumping or whatever.

I say thats premeauering, they aurge that the core rule book this one :Core rule book(page 6 is where it points to it)(i made a post bellow bolding the part thats important) is out dated and none of the rules apply. In that book page 6 clearly says no "testing and the player must estimate in there head " this is pretty clear that hoovering is testing.

They say that"paul the god of xwing" did it in some world championship and that if he can do so can they. They also say that this rule book is the only one that matters : 2nd edition add on to the core rule book and rules ref"mainly for term use"

Am I 100% wrong that you can just hold the template above your ship during the planning phase? Because if so, where dose it say just using the last to rule books that i can't just do that?

there aurgment is as following" You can't but you can do it above the mat. To clarify laying on the mat (just like a barrel roll, commits you to i). But unlike a barrel roll it is still considered as a commitment and you must do it. Hovering your template above the board is not mentioned in any rule(just like a barrel roll). This is the most valid and logical argument I have heard." end quote.

7 hours ago, semajoja said:

Because if so, where dose it say just using the last to rule books that i can't just do that?

It doesn't, not in the new rulebook or in the FAQ that I can find. However it's never been stated anywhere that the original rulebook is invalid, obviously it was superseded by the new one so where the new one conflicts with the old, the new one takes precedence, just like the FAQ trumps the rules.

Unfortunately this is something that FFG has never made nearly as clear as they should. There's been a few email rulings about it, there may of been something in one of the older FAQ's. But the most recent documents do not mention pre-measuring at all, and even when they did it was fairly vague.

The only thing it says now is that you pick your maneuver in secret which you could take to mean that you can't do anything that would give it away... But the counter argument to that would be that using a template like you mention doesn't actually mean I'm going to perform that maneuver, so it's still secret.

It is saddly, an issue where most people play it RAI, but the current RAW doesn't really cover it very well.

Planning Phase During this phase, each player uses maneuver dials to secretly choose one maneuver for each of his ships. The selection on the dial dictates how his ships move during the next Activation phase. Players must assign a dial to each ship. After all ships have been assigned maneuver dials, continue to the Activation phase. Choosing a Maneuver To choose a maneuver, the player rotates the faceplate of the ship’s maneuver dial until the window shows only the desired maneuver. He then assigns the maneuver to one of his ships by placing the dial facedown near its corresponding ship inside the play area. A player may look at his own facedown maneuver dials at any time, but he cannot look at his opponent’s facedown dials. A player controlling more than one ship may assign maneuvers to his ships in any order. Each selection on the maneuver dial has a corresponding maneuver template, which measures the ship’s movement during the Activation phase. During the Planning phase, players cannot use maneuver templates in order to “test” where ships will end up. Instead, they must plan their maneuvers by estimating their ships’ movement in their heads.

page 6 of the core rule book covers it, and covers premeasuring , the updated rules where to go along with the current core rule book, or they would keep updating the core rule book and they would have put out hey they old rule book is nothing.

I find this notion ludicrous. Just because they are not placing the template in the ship's nipples nubs (wouldn't want to offend anyone) does not exempt them from the above bolded text.

What do they think they are doing by hovering the template (whose use is explicitly forbidden btw) if not testing/premeasuring? And to follow up with the second part - do they really think that they are estimating in their heads if they are using the aforementioned forbidden templates? And I'd challenge them to produce the video evidence of this being allowed by anyone at an FFG ran event.

I cannot believe this was even allowed to get started, let alone gain a foothold and become the 'norm'. I've played lots of games, at many locations, across a sizeable geographical area, against many different opponents and have never seen (or even heard of) someone do this. Wow.....

4 minutes ago, thatdave said:

nipples

Nubs is the usual term btw...

23 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

Nubs is the usual term btw...

I don't mind being unusual but, while both terms are accurate, I will edit. Not that it matters what with the quote and all......

Here we are again... they need to fix this once and for all...

3 hours ago, semajoja said:

page 6 of the core rule book covers it, and covers premeasuring

Page 6 of the old rule book says that.

3 hours ago, semajoja said:

the updated rules where to go along with the current core rule book,

While I'd agree, you would have to first convince the people you're debating of that fact, and that's not going to be easy.

It's fairly typical that when a new rule book comes out, the old one is considered obsolete. FFG has not said one way or the other that the old book is still valid, however even if it is, there is still the fact that the rules you quoted don't exist in the new rule book. So it's not a huge leap to say they're not valid.

The fact that the most current version of the rules/FAQ don't mention pre-measuring makes your argument an uphill battle against anyone who wants to be able to. While most of us here would agree what the RAI are, we also have to acknowledge that the RAW in this case are crap, and FFG has a bad habit of assuming people remember what was in older versions of the Rules/FAQ, because there are a number of rulings from old FAQ's that are not in the current ones.

It's hardly unreasonable to argue that something that no longer appears in the most recent set of rules is no longer valid.

If would help, there's a thread around here somewhere with the collected rulings via email from the Dev's, or you could email them yourself, about this issue. But then would the people you're debating accept an email as legit?

43 minutes ago, VanorDM said:

Page 6 of the old rule book says that.

While I'd agree, you would have to first convince the people you're debating of that fact, and that's not going to be easy.

It's fairly typical that when a new rule book comes out, the old one is considered obsolete. FFG has not said one way or the other that the old book is still valid, however even if it is, there is still the fact that the rules you quoted don't exist in the new rule book. So it's not a huge leap to say they're not valid.

The fact that the most current version of the rules/FAQ don't mention pre-measuring makes your argument an uphill battle against anyone who wants to be able to. While most of us here would agree what the RAI are, we also have to acknowledge that the RAW in this case are crap, and FFG has a bad habit of assuming people remember what was in older versions of the Rules/FAQ, because there are a number of rulings from old FAQ's that are not in the current ones.

It's hardly unreasonable to argue that something that no longer appears in the most recent set of rules is no longer valid.

If would help, there's a thread around here somewhere with the collected rulings via email from the Dev's, or you could email them yourself, about this issue. But then would the people you're debating accept an email as legit?

The issue here it isn't old, It gets updated along with the rest of the books. FFG has 3 rule books out for xwing and they are as follows. 1. The core rule book as linked above. 2. The rule reference and 3. The tournament book and how they are suppose to be ran.

VanorDM pretty much covered everything there is to say rule wise.

The only thing that I would add is that any effort to pre-mesure is akin to mumbling one's train of thought; it can benefit your opponent as much as it can benefit the player doing it. So while a rule clarification might be needed to close the debate, you can definitely present the case that a player doing such a thing is actually not doing himself any favor in the long run.

The current (and past) Tournament Regulations state that the Xwing Rules Reference and Current FAQ are the only other documents considered official.

IF there is video evidence that Paul did this prior, it certainly would not be allowed now and was probably an oversight at the time it happened.

IF you go to an Xwing Regional or bigger event and attempted to pre-measure a few inches above the mat with your maneuver template during the planning phase, a Judge or Marshal would end that REAL quick. That is not Xwing. Period. THAT is not how the great community plays. IF your group plays that way and refuse to play correctly.... find another group.

I would seriously question any Store Championship event that allowed that and I would take video evidence and let send it into FFG and it probably would be the last store championship held at that store.

41 minutes ago, semajoja said:

The issue here it isn't old, It gets updated along with the rest of the books. FFG has 3 rule books out for xwing and they are as follows. 1. The core rule book as linked above. 2. The rule reference and 3. The tournament book and how they are suppose to be ran.

Not true. The core rules from the original set is no longer linked on the product page for X-Wing. If you look in the rules section, it has the learn to play doc (from tfa core), rules reference (from tfa core), and huge ship rules. Then another section for the faq

11 minutes ago, Sephlar said:

The current (and past) Tournament Regulations state that the Xwing Rules Reference and Current FAQ are the only other documents considered official.

IF there is video evidence that Paul did this prior, it certainly would not be allowed now and was probably an oversight at the time it happened.

IF you go to an Xwing Regional or bigger event and attempted to pre-measure a few inches above the mat with your maneuver template during the planning phase, a Judge or Marshal would end that REAL quick. That is not Xwing. Period. THAT is not how the great community plays. IF your group plays that way and refuse to play correctly.... find another group.

I would seriously question any Store Championship event that allowed that and I would take video evidence and let send it into FFG and it probably would be the last store championship held at that store.

The problem is that nothing in the newer rules documents actually SAYS that, so how do you convince people of it

@VanderLegion...

Take them to a regional event (and most any local tournament with a competent TO) and have them try it.

1 hour ago, semajoja said:

The issue here it isn't old, It gets updated along with the rest of the books.

No the core book is not being updated, and can no longer be downloaded. So it is clearly no longer the current rule book. The Rules Reference only get updated via the FAQ, and only the Rules Reference is mentioned in the FAQ.

14 minutes ago, Sephlar said:

Take them to a regional event (and most any local tournament with a competent TO) and have them try it.

That's not really proof of anything. The fact is that while we all know it's not allowed, the fact is the rules don't actually cover it in anything nearly enough detail. Someone like Semajoja cannot point at a page # in the rules reference or FAQ that says what they are doing is not allowed. While 'the rules don't say you can't do it' is seldom a convincing argument in some cases it is a valid one.

Even the part in the FAQ where it says "Players may only measure range and/or use the range ruler to determine whether a ship is inside or outside of a firing arc at the following times:" doesn't mention the planning phase or maneuvers. The fact that it's spelled out there for range and not for maneuvers in the planning phase can actually be the foundation of an argument that it is allowed.

So when you have someone who believes you can do it, and you can't point to anything that says you can't, you have an uphill battle ahead of you, because they clearly have a vested interest in doing so. Again the fact that it was spelled out in the old book or that can't measure range is spelled out actually can be used against you.

Just to be clear, I know what the RAI are, and you can't measure with the templates in the planning phase, but that's RAI and not clear RAW. So the best thing may be for Semajoja to have someone on the other side of the argument email FFG and ask them. Then at least they can't say he altered the email.

That's just great. Now I'm gonna think of them as nipples for now on. Ugh.

This the simplest answer,

you can't for maneuvers but you can for boosts and barrel roll.

1 minute ago, RIP Yoda said:

This the simplest answer,

you can't for maneuvers but you can for boosts and barrel roll.

No, that's not quite right.

You declare you're going to boost/BR in a specific direction; e.g. left. You place the template and attempt the move. If it fits; you're locked in. Only if you can't complete the move do you go back and either a) try the action in a different direction, or b) undertake a different action.

You are most certainly not allowed to place the template down to see if a boost/BR will fit a specific way before declaring you're going to do it.

And in a formal tourney; once the template touches the mat, you're locked into that action if you can complete it. Even if it ends you up somewhere different to where you ideally wanted to be; e.g. a BR left does fit but not in the way you had hoped (i.e. dodging an arc, avoiding a rock, etc.)

Just now, Dr Zoidberg said:

No, that's not quite right.

You declare you're going to boost/BR in a specific direction; e.g. left. You place the template and attempt the move. If it fits; you're locked in. Only if you can't complete the move do you go back and either a) try the action in a different direction, or b) undertake a different action.

You are most certainly not allowed to place the template down to see if a boost/BR will fit a specific way before declaring you're going to do it.

And in a formal tourney; once the template touches the mat, you're locked into that action if you can complete it. Even if it ends you up somewhere different to where you ideally wanted to be; e.g. a BR left does fit but not in the way you had hoped (i.e. dodging an arc, avoiding a rock, etc.)

oh yep i get ya there soz for that!

My opinion, suck it up. You want them to stare at it for 5 minutes trying mentally picture it as accurately as possible or do want the game to proceed at a decent pace where your opponent is a least making moderately informed decisions? If they want to telegraph their thinking use THAT to make them pay.

You say you have "some people" so how many does that mean? Are the majority of your local players pre-measuring or a minority? If you have more experienced players or a TO that knows the game, I would discuss it with them and ask them to address it. If they say it is OK to do, then you need to consider that a local rule and accept it. As StevenO says, use that to your advantage and make them pay for it. Just know if they ever decide to come to most other tournaments, they will get shut down by most players and TOs fairly quickly.

X-Wing uses a permissive rule set. That means that you can not do anything unless the rules tell you that you can. So ask them to show you where it says that they can use the maneuver templates during the Plannin phase.

The Learn to Play guide page 5 and the RRG, both state that you plan your maneuver in secret using the maneuver dial. It also states that you use the corresponding maneuver template in the Activation Phase, when you execute the planned maneuver.

That seems quite clear cut.

This comes maybe from some other miniature games? Think in warhammer you can premeasure.

Also, there was a discussion on that already, that had the same result..

I hope they clear it up at some point..

17 hours ago, Fuzzywookie said:

That's just great. Now I'm gonna think of them as nipples for now on. Ugh.

You're welcome lol

Where this happens has a more casual setting, right? In which case, if both players don't agree to the method of play, then the game doesn't happen.

Player 1: "Are you going to pre-measure your manuevers?"

Player 2: "Yeah, the rule-book says I can."

Player 1: "That thing is out of date and I'm not playing like that."

The end.