7 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

That's where you went wrong: We aren't drawing statistical data from it. We're drawing strategic information about it from our logical basis in understanding mathematical efficency, basic probability and fundamental understandings of the game.

Also who knows. Are you asking me about Demo? Ok. Tell me what I said.

I'm just asking if you similarly chastised anyone who dared say that Demo was not broken back in 2015-16 era. Did you call for a Demo nerf when it was in four of the Top 4 builds at the North American Championships? Did you demand nerfing when the Gencon 2016 final was an ISD/Demo near-mirror match?

Because, if not, one might say your current reaction to Reikaan is a little unfair or perhaps even biased. I don't know what your views on the Demo issue were, so I'm asking. Maybe you also called for Demo to get the nerf bat, but if you did not, then there's a bit of inconsistency here with this reaction to Reikaan (that to be fair, lots of people are having right now).


PS: For the record, I hate Reikaan and I've been flying him exclusively for the past year and a half. But I also strongly believed that Demo and Rhymer deserved nerfs for their meta-warping effects back in the 2015ish/2016ish eras, and yet they were never nerfed. But at least my complaints against Reikaan now are consistent with very similiar complaints I've had against Demo.

16 minutes ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

I'm just asking if you similarly chastised anyone who dared say that Demo was not broken back in 2015-16 era. Did you call for a Demo nerf when it was in four of the Top 4 builds at the North American Championships? Did you demand nerfing when the Gencon 2016 final was an ISD/Demo near-mirror match?

Because, if not, one might say your current reaction to Reikaan is a little unfair or perhaps even biased. I don't know what your views on the Demo issue were, so I'm asking. Maybe you also called for Demo to get the nerf bat, but if you did not, then there's a bit of inconsistency here with this reaction to Reikaan (that to be fair, lots of people are having right now).


PS: For the record, I hate Reikaan and I've been flying him exclusively for the past year and a half. But I also strongly believed that Demo and Rhymer deserved nerfs for their meta-warping effects back in the 2015ish/2016ish eras, and yet they were never nerfed. But at least my complaints against Reikaan now are consistent with very similiar complaints I've had against Demo.

well, Demo effectively got a nerf, since they released flotillas with the "I ignore all of demo's side arc and 1/4 of demo's front arc shots" scatter. They even pointed it aggressively enough that you saw 6 flotillas in the top 2, and flotillas in all the top 4 at worlds. As a matter of fact, you see more flotillas than you ever saw of demo, pre-flotilla.

is there a post out there with full details of the top table lists? Watching the stream now.

EDIT: Sorry, I meant this to be a reply to a quote from @ripper998 who asked what I was running.

Where's your God now?
Author: Caldias

Faction: Rebel Alliance
Points: 395/400

Commander: Mon Mothma

Assault Objective: Most Wanted
Defense Objective: Hyperspace Assault
Navigation Objective: Solar Corona

MC30c Torpedo Frigate (63 points)
- Admonition ( 8 points)
- Lando Calrissian ( 4 points)
- Ordnance Experts ( 4 points)
- Reinforced Blast Doors ( 5 points)
- X17 Turbolasers ( 6 points)
- Assault Proton Torpedoes ( 5 points)
= 95 total ship cost

MC30c Torpedo Frigate (63 points)
- Foresight ( 8 points)
- Major Derlin ( 7 points)
- Ordnance Experts ( 4 points)
- Reinforced Blast Doors ( 5 points)
- X17 Turbolasers ( 6 points)
- Assault Proton Torpedoes ( 5 points)
= 98 total ship cost

MC30c Torpedo Frigate (63 points)
- Ordnance Experts ( 4 points)
- H9 Turbolasers ( 8 points)
- Assault Proton Torpedoes ( 5 points)
= 80 total ship cost

[ flagship ] GR-75 Medium Transports (18 points)
- Mon Mothma ( 30 points)
= 48 total ship cost

GR-75 Medium Transports (18 points)
- Comms Net ( 2 points)
= 20 total ship cost

GR-75 Medium Transports (18 points)
- Comms Net ( 2 points)
= 20 total ship cost

GR-75 Medium Transports (18 points)
= 18 total ship cost

1 Tycho Celchu ( 16 points)

5 hours ago, Captain Weather said:

You know thats not what he was saying at all and to characterise it like that is just dumb and unhelpful.

At no point did he say 'I just want to have to control three things'. He said he wants the focus of the game to be on capital ships and capital ship movement. Which for a game about capital ships isn't ridiculous.

I love Squadrons and I will happily say that the balance has swung too far. Squads should be important, like they are in the cannon, but at the end of the day it's not wrong to want your game about capital ships to have the spotlight be on them.

Well when the only ships on the table are basically support acts to the squadrons....

Clearly this list style is able to consistently sustain 8 point+ games across all matchups.

I think the game itself is not "broken" - at this level its obviously highly tactical, every move matters and there is no margin for misjudgement.

But I guess the question is aesthetically, is this what we want our game to be based around and look like, or do we want to see more and bigger ships deciding the issue rather than the squaddies?

I cant read

Final was 5 vs 5 ships.

9 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

Hey @Truthiness. =) Jw, do you play Xwing? I actually got really saddened by that game. We thought we were moving into a beautiful new era with the nerfs, but now about a month in we are realizing that the same ships are coming back from the worst era of Xwing, Wave4-6 Large ship turrets only.

No I don't, and I'm glad for it. X-Wing was really starting to get big during my last deployment, so I started researching it. What I found was community that felt insular and hostile. Armada came out before I got back from deployment and found it to be more my style. I have never looked back.

I'm concerned we as a community are starting to reach the same levels of hostility and GroupThink. I think the results of Worlds has a lot to do with players being unwilling to take chances at that level, but I am also happy to concede that you have a point. Rieekan Aces needs a bit of a nerf. Now please, brother, take a breath, remember this is a game, and give FFG a chance to make adjustments.

So does anyone know how the new tourny reg rule where you can measure after you place a squad worked out? Did it slow games or speed them up? Was it useful?

4 hours ago, Truthiness said:

I'm concerned we as a community are starting to reach the same levels of hostility and GroupThink. I think the results of Worlds has a lot to do with players being unwilling to take chances at that level, but I am also happy to concede that you have a point. Rieekan Aces needs a bit of a nerf. Now please, brother, take a breath, remember this is a game, and give FFG a chance to make adjustments.

This, for everyone. Whether you think Rieekan needs to be burned in effigy made of his cards, or that the solution is as simple as giving Imperials more Snipe, or you just don't care and are going to continue plopping Imperials down because YOLO, everyone imitate guy no. 3 there who is playing a game and having fun. Please, hostility and groupthink are not inevitable, nor is some forums nuclear civil war, if we start acting like the adults we all are.

You've seen the state of the world, yes? Adults are horrible and they act horribly toward each other.

1 hour ago, Undeadguy said:

So does anyone know how the new tourny reg rule where you can measure after you place a squad worked out? Did it slow games or speed them up? Was it useful?

It was awful. Playing against Reikaan Aces was worse than pissing glass, sitting there forever as you waited on them to quadruple measure and quadruple move each squadron, making sure they had every Intel, and Escort, and Relay in just the right perfect spot. It slowed the game down to the point of misery.

I really hope FFG revisits a much more restrictive ruleset for measuring generally and moving squadrons in particular. Because I'd rather just not play Armada in a tournament again than sit through nine hours of that nonsense again.

6 minutes ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

It was awful. Playing against Reikaan Aces was worse than pissing glass, sitting there forever as you waited on them to quadruple measure and quadruple move each squadron, making sure they had every Intel, and Escort, and Relay in just the right perfect spot. It slowed the game down to the point of misery.

I really hope FFG revisits a much more restrictive ruleset for measuring generally and moving squadrons in particular. Because I'd rather just not play Armada in a tournament again than sit through nine hours of that nonsense again.

This always aggravates me. I always find myself subsidizing the slower playing opponent by speeding up my decisions and thought process usually to my detriment. No out of choice... simply force of habit. Theres NO REASON to not be able to finish a game well under 3 hours.

They need to bring in the shot clock they use in chess. Problem solved. Albeit those clocks are expensive. But then you can take as much of YOUR time as you'd like doing whatever you'd like. But if you run out of time I wouldn't say you loose but I think a negative modifier to your final score is in order.

Say minus 100 points for running out of time? This easily turns a narrow lose to a victory.

2 minutes ago, PartyPotato said:

This always aggravates me. I always find myself subsidizing the slower playing opponent by speeding up my decisions and thought process usually to my detriment. No out of choice... simply force of habit. Theres NO REASON to not be able to finish a game well under 3 hours.

They need to bring in the shot clock they use in chess. Problem solved. Albeit those clocks are expensive. But then you can take as much of YOUR time as you'd like doing whatever you'd like. But if you run out of time I wouldn't say you loose but I think a negative modifier to your final score is in order.

Say minus 100 points for running out of time? This easily turns a narrow lose to a victory.

Amen. I am also 100% convinced that some of my opponents were moving their squadrons well beyond the normal movement because in all the measuring of everything they'd lose track of the starting position. I KNOW in one game one of my Reikaan Aces opponents moved a Speed 3 Squadron around Speed 4 in the process. Grrr.

31 minutes ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

It was awful. Playing against Reikaan Aces was worse than pissing glass, sitting there forever as you waited on them to quadruple measure and quadruple move each squadron, making sure they had every Intel, and Escort, and Relay in just the right perfect spot. It slowed the game down to the point of misery.

I really hope FFG revisits a much more restrictive ruleset for measuring generally and moving squadrons in particular. Because I'd rather just not play Armada in a tournament again than sit through nine hours of that nonsense again.

Call judge on slow play? At th at point it is to me slow play at that level. They should not be forced to play fast and loose bit at the same time they should not be taking a chunk of time from the game to be perfect.

34 minutes ago, Lyraeus said:

Call judge on slow play? At th at point it is to me slow play at that level. They should not be forced to play fast and loose bit at the same time they should not be taking a chunk of time from the game to be perfect.

This is always easier said then done. I always hesitate to instantly turn what is supposed to be a friendly (albeit competitive) game hostile.

I have once or twice commented that we need to pick up the pace if were going to make time, but have never gotten a judge involved. I'll loose a game before I sour an event by openly accusing a player of slow playing.

I'm not saying that you shouldn't or that its never warranted as it certainly is on occasion. Especially if you dropped real dollars to travel to a tournament. I'm simply saying that I would never do that. I would concede a game to slow play then make the mood at the tournament hostile. I've been in other gaming tournaments where the atmosphere was hostile (I wasn't remotely involved) but it was terrible for EVERYONE at the tournament and the community really struggles to recover.

1 hour ago, Lyraeus said:

Call judge on slow play? At th at point it is to me slow play at that level. They should not be forced to play fast and loose bit at the same time they should not be taking a chunk of time from the game to be perfect.

The problem with FFG Judges--and this isn't a problem about them as people but their limited power and knowledge as officials--is that they don't do anything to rectify problematic situations. They always just say "ok, well both of you keep an eye on it and we'll keep an eye on it too." But this doesn't help in situations where your opponent has already gained an unfair advantage, like moving a Speed 3 Escort Speed 4, or taking forever on a turn, or the like.

I've been playing X-Wing and Armada at the highest competitive levels for five years now, and I've seen a lot of judges called. I have never once seen a judge actually rule in favor of the wronged player in any significant way. I saw a guy fudge his maneuver so that his X-Wing ship would not fly off the board. When his opponent called the judge, the judge just came over, asked if anyone was 100% sure the move was a fudge, of course no spectators were, so the judge just said "eh, be careful." Like, I'm 99.9% sure as a spectator the player cheated his move to stay alive on board, but I'm not going to intervene as a spectator without video proof and that chance to review for 100% certainty. Multiple times I've seen guys "accidentally" pick up an opponent's maneuver dial and look at it, and the judges always just say "eh, be careful, you can change your dial if you want..." No, I want my opponent penalized...knowing where my preferred maneuver was going is a huge advantage. How does it help me to get to pick my second or third maneuver now? I have never seen a player penalized for slow-play, because there is always that shadow of a doubt that prevents a judge from ruling against it. The lack of official Judge Floor Rules doesn't help.


But yea, if anyone really wanted to cheat at Armada they could just fudge their squadron moves or add a click here or there to a ship. Often those little fudges can swing entire games (think a Glad getting into Black Range or not, or a squadron getting into engagement or not). Hell, you could blatantly move a Speed 3 squad at Speed 4. On the off chance your opponent calls foul, the judge will come over, you both say you're sure it was/wasn't a legal move, and the judge will just say "well be careful." Then BOOM, he gets to fire 4 Black dice into his opponent's ship that would have been out of range. As long as a player does this infrequently, they'd probably always get away with it.

But yes, I'm fairly sure I've had at least two opponets fudge moves to get engagements that they did not have. At a 2016 Regionals game last year, I'd bet my collection that one of my opponents did an illegal move with his Demo to get a shot he didn't really have, either intentionally or unintentionally. But as the wronged player, unless your game is being taped there's nothing you can do in these situations other than second-guess your own judgment (uh, maybe he was able to move into range...?) or else feel wronged without much recourse for restitution, especially when your opponent does their move quickly or sloppily and you don't have a chance to verify it.

11 hours ago, Caldias said:

EDIT: Sorry, I meant this to be a reply to a quote from @ripper998 who asked what I was running.

Where's your God now?
Author: Caldias

Faction: Rebel Alliance
Points: 395/400

Commander: Mon Mothma

Assault Objective: Most Wanted
Defense Objective: Hyperspace Assault
Navigation Objective: Solar Corona

MC30c Torpedo Frigate (63 points)
- Admonition ( 8 points)
- Lando Calrissian ( 4 points)
- Ordnance Experts ( 4 points)
- Reinforced Blast Doors ( 5 points)
- X17 Turbolasers ( 6 points)
- Assault Proton Torpedoes ( 5 points)
= 95 total ship cost

MC30c Torpedo Frigate (63 points)
- Foresight ( 8 points)
- Major Derlin ( 7 points)
- Ordnance Experts ( 4 points)
- Reinforced Blast Doors ( 5 points)
- X17 Turbolasers ( 6 points)
- Assault Proton Torpedoes ( 5 points)
= 98 total ship cost

MC30c Torpedo Frigate (63 points)
- Ordnance Experts ( 4 points)
- H9 Turbolasers ( 8 points)
- Assault Proton Torpedoes ( 5 points)
= 80 total ship cost

[ flagship ] GR-75 Medium Transports (18 points)
- Mon Mothma ( 30 points)
= 48 total ship cost

GR-75 Medium Transports (18 points)
- Comms Net ( 2 points)
= 20 total ship cost

GR-75 Medium Transports (18 points)
- Comms Net ( 2 points)
= 20 total ship cost

GR-75 Medium Transports (18 points)
= 18 total ship cost

1 Tycho Celchu ( 16 points)

Roflmao "where's your god now?"

Congratulations to Norm on his huge win, Toronto community is proud of him. I do recall mentioning how nasty this build was in a thread from early April:

On April 5, 2017 at 0:54 PM, Kristjan said:

All this talk of floatillas, but from what I see its squadrons that are dominating the game, floatillas just facilitate this. There really is no ship based solution to heavy squadron builds aside from buffing your own squadrons. Spending a lot of points on ships doesn't really help against squads and is wasted against a lot of fleets where there is no single ship worth as much as the squad compliment. With the introduction of relay, winning the squad war is now the only reasonable path to a solid victory, it's unlikely you will be able to chase down all the floatillas spamming squad commands from across the table. I can't make worlds this year, but will warn those of you attending that the guys coming from Toronto have created a monster that I believe requires attention from the game designers.

6 hours ago, Kristjan said:

Congratulations to Norm on his huge win, Toronto community is proud of him. I do recall mentioning how nasty this build was in a thread from early April:

Congrats to Norm and the Toronto community! Seems there must be something in the water, and by all accounts you guys cooked up a really great version of the Rieekan Aces list that's popped up all over the world!

Seems like Toronto worked and prepped really hard for this tourney. I'm glad that such behavior results in top 8 finishes and the championship win. Seems like the hallmark of a well balanced game and an equal playing field!!!

11 hours ago, Kristjan said:

Congratulations to Norm on his huge win, Toronto community is proud of him. I do recall mentioning how nasty this build was in a thread from early April:

That's my conclusions from the Bay area fights. Not sure if Norm came up with the list first, or Mythics did, or one copied the other, but yeah... same conclusions. Rebel witchcraft with massed fighters, MSUs being prized over medium/heavies, state of the game is now a demolition derby of small things. Majestic capital ship captains have to sit down and shut up if they're making their big ships do something other than commanding fighters.

*Shrug*

And with the Quasar peeking at us with Squadron 4 and Sloane standing on the bridge, it feels like that's going to be the name of the game for the foreseeable future.

Full congrats to Norm and also the others from the Toronto group for their very strong showing, even inspite of being matched against each other in at least two games!

I will say though, Kristjan, it can hardly be fair to give all credit for the list build to the Toronto group; after all it was very very similar to Justin's list from last worlds, mainly with CC additions.

Congratulations, Norm! Well played tournament.

On 2017-5-5 at 5:03 AM, beefcake4000 said:

I loved that washer idea. Best player innovation I've seen in ages

Congrats to everyone.. but what is the washer innovation? Is that the board with all the fighter health dials on it?