Anything you can say about how flimsy Vader is pretty much applies the same to a TIE/sf. He only needs one evade token all game to be comparable to an /sf and any future evade tokens are gravy.
We haven't even got onto that he's got an extra agility, which is strictly better than LWF.
Edited by Stay On The LeaderNo need to say "Darth Vader only. TIE Advanced only." "TIE Advanced x1 only" is enough.
I think Darth Vader needs no fix.
Edited by AwesomeJedi7 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:Anything you can say about how flimsy Vader is pretty much applies the same to a TIE/sf. He only needs one evade token all game to be comparable to an /sf and any future evade tokens are gravy.
We haven't even got onto that he's got an extra agility, which is strictly better than LWF.
No it doesn't. They are apples and oranges. Not even remotely the same ship. They have different roles, different upgrade slots, different upgrades available, they move differently, and have a different purpose. If you fail to see that, I can't help you.
The SF is great at dodging arcs in a close-range fight. The combination of barrel roll and rear arc allow it to attack a lot of things without getting shot back.
Just now, RufusDaMan said:No it doesn't. They are apples and oranges. Not even remotely the same ship. They have different roles, different upgrade slots, different upgrades available, they move differently, and have a different purpose. If you fail to see that, I can't help you.
Role and purpose is player-led.
The bottom line is that Darth Vader is tankier than a TIE/sf so if you decide that his 'role' is to be an arc-dodger and Backdraft's 'role' is to be a jouster then... ok? If anything Vader is more suited to the jouster role and his weakness in the comparison vs Backdraft is precisely that he's worse at arc-dodging because he needs to keep his front arc on.
Vader have still is place on the game. Not top tier but he have enough tools to be a threat :
Title, predator, proton rocket, guidance ship, advanced targeting computer can do brutal damage.
Title, outmaneuver, accuracy corrector, engine upgrade for arc dodging.
Of course Tlt, bombs/sabine, ghost/autoblaster can murder him but still fun to play.
Edited by Arkanta974
Vader loses potential when used to Joust. His offense isn't supreme, but because of his ability and ATC will be focused down. If Vader is used to arc dodge, he brings more value point for point.
Vader can die from two shots, and often does. 1 or 2 rounds of jousting means a maximum of 2 shots from Vader. Doesn't seem efficient, even for 33 points.
The problem with Vader will always be the one thing they can't fix with a title or mod. His dial. His dial(and that of any Tie advance) does not match his points cost. It is sub par for arc dodging and not great for jousting due to no 1 straight. If Vader could just cruise forward slowly with a 1 straight and shoot the crap out of someone with ATC all while focusing and evading, he would be great.
10 minutes ago, RufusDaMan said:Vader loses potential when used to Joust. His offense isn't supreme, but because of his ability and ATC will be focused down. If Vader is used to arc dodge, he brings more value point for point.
Vader can die from two shots, and often does. 1 or 2 rounds of jousting means a maximum of 2 shots from Vader. Doesn't seem efficient, even for 33 points.
Yet, once again, pretty much the exact same is true of Backdraft who is doing fine.
I've been playing Vader + Omega Leader + Striden with Systems officer and I have to say that this list kicks but. Being able to give Vader or omega a free target lock so they can change target and then coordinating a free action makes these two seriously hard ships to kill.
The problem with Vader is you try to fly him like Soontir or Inquisitor, but that's not where he shines, yes he can arc dodge and when not fighting turrets you should do just that, but the real strength to Vader is his ability with an already high pilot skill. This lets you take adaptability or VI and make him shoot first every game. Combined with his consistent damage output of a crit that's where he gets scary.
Do turrets kill him quickly? Kind of... but if you play carefully that won't matter much since Vader just lays down consistent damage. Kylo's I'll show you the dark side only makes Vader a stronger candidate for taking down ships.
He doesn't need Autothrusters, I don't want him to have Autothrusters. People just want Autothrusters because TLT is slightly broken right now. But Vader can easily get into range one if you play him right.
Stop flying him like Soontir and start flying him as a multi-use battering ram. Vader is adaptive, so make use of that.
1 minute ago, Stay On The Leader said:Yet, once again, pretty much the exact same is true of Backdraft who is doing fine.
Once again, no. Backdraft doesn't have the option of dodging arcs. He jousts, because that's all he can do, and he is better at it, because of straight 1-s, and rear arc.
Vader is much better at dodging arcs than Backdraft, and his ability lends itself more into that direction, but the turretspam prevents him from doing that. He is relegated into being a worse jouster, but as one of the three native 9-s of the empire, and the most recognizable star wars character ever, I think he deserves more than to be a second grade jouster.
38 minutes ago, Rinzler in a Tie said:You have a way with words... You're totally right, btw.
Vader cannot survive in a meta with Miranda and Kanan. AT would make him competitive, as his points are already on par with every other ship in the Imperial barracks. AT would make him ~36 points, a heavy tax in and of itself - but don't forget he's only got 5 health. That's 1.5 bomb and a TLT shot from regen Miranda. Poof.
Good luck not spending any tokens on offense...
Vader doesnt need to survive against every ship in the game though. He has enough health to survive a bomb, and enough to survive a couple TLTs. That is decent enough to have a chance. He only has 1 less shield than an S/F.
I am actually surprised Vader is not used much right now with all the Fenn Rau's roaming around. Vader can easily keep range 2 of Fenn where you need to be to kill him. And any hit he gets through is a faceup card on a shieldless Protectorate.
As myself and biophysical pointed out: Backdraft is better at dodging arcs than Vader, while Vader is better at jousting.
50 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:TBH I think he's not that far off the curve. If you don't put Engine Upgrade on him then 33pts of Vader with Predator is relatively comparable to 33pts of Backdraft. Just in the final analysis you get a little bit more from Backdraft, but it's closer than you'd first think.
- Darth Vader - Predator, Advanced Targeting Computer (33)
- Backdraft - Veteran Instincts, Lightweight Frame, Primed Thrusters, Fire Control System (33)
Both PS9, both barrel roll but can't boost, both have action economy (Predator vs FCS), both have automatic crits being added, Vader has one less hull but double actions to stack Evade tokens... it's not light years different. Yet Backdraft is considered good and Vader considered bad - the difference can't be much more than a point or two.
You think so? I look at a full suite of speed 1 moves, a rear arc, and no need to TL your target in order to be dangerous, and I'm seeing a heck of a lot more than 1 extra point of utility on Backdraft.
Vader does get 2 actions, but he will often want to spend one on a TL in order to switch on ATC, so it's an inconsistent benefit. 3 greens is situationally better than 2 with LWF, but often the same. The Evade action is Vader's only clear advantage, in my opinion, and I don't think it equalizes Backdraft's advantages listed above.
When I fly the Advanced these days, I find I'm getting much more out of Accuracy Corrector + Proton Rocket PS2 Tempests than I am from Vader. At 24 points, they fill a role at a price point that the /sf cannot match.
Just now, fiesta0618 said:You think so? I look at a full suite of speed 1 moves, a rear arc, and no need to TL your target in order to be dangerous, and I'm seeing a heck of a lot more than 1 extra point of utility on Backdraft.
Vader does get 2 actions, but he will often want to spend one on a TL in order to switch on ATC, so it's an inconsistent benefit. 3 greens is situationally better than 2 with LWF, but often the same. The Evade action is Vader's only clear advantage, in my opinion, and I don't think it equalizes Backdraft's advantages listed above.
When I fly the Advanced these days, I find I'm getting much more out of Accuracy Corrector + Proton Rocket PS2 Tempests than I am from Vader. At 24 points, they fill a role at a price point that the /sf cannot match.
I don't think Vader is as good - I've said that many times - but I think he's not much behind and I don't think Autothrusters are the issue.
Thats just entrenched Aces thinking not adapting to the new reality. You can't reconcile 'needs autothrusters to live' and 'TIE/sf is pretty good' into the same worldview.
1 minute ago, Stay On The Leader said:I don't think Vader is as good - I've said that many times - but I think he's not much behind and I don't think Autothrusters are the issue.
Thats just entrenched Aces thinking not adapting to the new reality. You can't reconcile 'needs autothrusters to live' and 'TIE/sf is pretty good' into the same worldview.
I agree, I don't think he needs Autos. I'd kill for 1-hard turns tough
1 minute ago, Stay On The Leader said:I don't think Vader is as good - I've said that many times - but I think he's not much behind and I don't think Autothrusters are the issue.
Thats just entrenched Aces thinking not adapting to the new reality. You can't reconcile 'needs autothrusters to live' and 'TIE/sf is pretty good' into the same worldview.
4 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:As myself and biophysical pointed out: Backdraft is better at dodging arcs than Vader, while Vader is better at jousting.
Yeah... sure.
2 minutes ago, fiesta0618 said:I agree, I don't think he needs Autos. I'd kill for 1-hard turns tough
Vader (and the title) in a TIE Advanced Prototype. **Drool**
Here's one for Vader.
Title
Darth Vader's Tie Adv
Darth Vader Tie Adv only
When attacking if you miss you may spend a focus token to do the damage on your dice faces to a ship in arc.
X pts no idea... 4 maybe?
He gets so mad when he misses he auto hits. Like super powered gunner, no def dice on the "reroll" and you already know the roll and you can save your focus if you at least rolled some damage or take the shot and hit with it.
your opponent might decide to take a small hit instead of dodging... just to not piss off vader and incur his wrath.
Edited by JetfirePfft.
Darth Vader - Swarm Leader, TIE/x1, Advanced Targeting Computer.
Add Evade-capable wingmen to taste. Personally I like Accuracy Corrector Tempest Squadrons, because who needs to roll to hit anyway amirite?
I've been doing quite well with Vader lately. I run him with engine upgrade, ATC, and predator. I basically treat him like another Soontir who is slightly less dodgy but has more durability. He's very good at killing large ships since he can reliably put damage on low agility targets. Have not tried him vs the Fennrau mimdlink be yet but he might do well.
I think its something you just need a lot of practice with.
2 hours ago, fiesta0618 said:I agree, I don't think he needs Autos. I'd kill for 1-hard turns tough
Ever tried Juno Eclipse? Lose the 2nd action, but you get your maneuverability.
6 minutes ago, kris40k said:Ever tried Juno Eclipse? Lose the 2nd action, but you get your maneuverability.
Juno Eclipse
PTL/TIE Mk. 2/Title/ATC/Prockets
36 points of ship your opponent can't ignore.
Edited by Scopes3 hours ago, RufusDaMan said:The TIE sf has a double arc, and can fire twice... its hardly the same role as an Arc dodger. Stats only tell half the story.
Vader with an ATC wants to arc dodge and keep the same target in arc until he destroys it. the TIE SF clumsily flies through space like a potato and is happy if anything moves into its murder arc.
Darth Tater!
Edited by AlekzanterHere's another Vader list that has potential:
Juno Eclipse — TIE Advanced 28
Push the Limit 3
Proton Rockets 3
Advanced Targeting Computer 1
Twin Ion Engine Mk. II 1
TIE/x1 0
Ship Total: 36
Darth Vader — TIE Advanced 29
Trick Shot 0
Proton Rockets 3
Advanced Targeting Computer 1
Engine Upgrade 4
TIE/x1 0
Ship Total: 37
Gamma Squadron Veteran — TIE Bomber 19
Crack Shot 1
Extra Munitions 2
Homing Missiles 5
Long-Range Scanners 0
Ship Total: 27