Hello everyone!

I have a bit of a problem, seeing as everyone in my group is probably just going to use the assist manoeuvre after their action. To spice things up I'll try to make the enviroments a bit more interesting, but I seem to find that most actions you can do with the enviroment are just worse then the assist manoeuvre or a melee strike.

But, what counts as a manoeuvre and what counts as an action? Let's say the characters are doing battle with a group of skeletons in a ruined theatre. The floor of the theatre is scattered with old debris, mostly destroyed chairs. If a character wanted to grab and throw part of a chair at a skeleton, would it be an action or manoeuvre? As a manoeuvre it's quite good as it can enhance his damage, but as an action it would be pretty useless since his attacks do far more damage?

Is kicking debris into the path of a skeleton, to make him trip, an action? Is trying to push the skeleton into a spikey bit of wood an action? Things like that makes me confused! As manoeuvres, they are great, as actions.. probably not so much?

Any clarifications on this subject would be great, as well as a few suggestion on cool manoeuvres!

Thank you!

Reclusiarch

I have not GM'd yet so my opinion may be irrelevant. (Getting the rules down solid before I start)

But I would relate all actions to cards from the game, and if there is not a card for it then make it a maneouvre and use your judgement. (Since out of the game the words can be described both the same way by "doing something"). If you feel someone tries to do too much in 1 maneouvre, break it down and let them know or give them the choice. Eventually everyone will get a sense of timing.

In the case of the chair vs the skeleton, I would enourage the maneouvre since it spices up combat but instead of simply adding damage. I would perhaps treat it with more of a distraction. If I picked up a chair and threw it at the mob I would have a couple things in mind, like

A) slowing down a skeleton whos trying to close in the distance for combat and you could make it harder for the skeleton to do so with addings rolls or he gains less distance then intended while barrage the foe with arrows. Or

B) if he intented damage/distraction before an assault perhaps give the skeleton some misfortune or challenge dice on whatever he attemtps to do on his turn as he wouldnt be hurt but shrugging off being hit with a chair and more dazed. Makes mobs appear more threatening in a sense. Or opposite, even grant fortune dice to the attacker after throwing the chair, reflecting a slight advantage over the foe then normal while he deals with the distraction of the chair.

Again only a suggestion and I didn't see any replies so I thought i'd my 2 cents, if even worth that lol. I guess I'll know more once I play.

Reclusiarch said:

Actions = something listed on an Action Card.

Throwing a chair is a Ranged Shot Action.

Kicking debris into the path of the skeleton is a manoeuvre.

Pushing the skeleton is a Melee Attack Action.

FWIW in my game I award 1<P> to PCs who wish to add additional effects to their Actions i.e. blind them, knock them prone. You need to be careful not to invalidate other Action Cards, but it works well.

That is great example of maneuver usage. I would totally let my players do that with their free maneuver and leave actions to the cards. It also will allow them to interact with the environment.

Great Idea!!

I would want to see something creative like thrown chair to qualify as an assist maneouvre. A lame description should not qualify or result in a black misfortune die as it turned out to be lame assistance.

Rob

It depends on the intent of what the player is doing.

Throwing a chair intending to cause damage, I would agree is probably best used as a Ranged Strike action (with an improvised weapon).

Don't forget that there is the "Perform a Stunt" action card, which covers actions that don't have a specific card. So, throwing the chair, not with an intent to damage but say to trip or slow an opponent, I would say uses the Perform a Stunt Action card.

A pretty good rule of thumb, is that if what the player wants to do is offensive in nature, or affects someone else, then it will require an action. Anything miscellaneous, that doesn't affect someone else, is likely to be a maneuver.

I agree with dvang. Perform a Stunt is an excellent way to perform a maneuver as an action. Leap over the table (Athletics(Ag) check) to move from Close to Engaged. That sort of stuff.

I also agree with Skywalker. Throwing a chair is a Ranged Shot with an Improvised Weapon. Pushing the skeleton is a Melee Attack. Blocking or slowing them down with debris is probably a Stunt.

The problem is probably more relevant in Social Encounters.

In the rulebook under Standard Manoeuvres on page 52 it says that you can use a skill to perform its normal function. So, in a Social Encounter a player can perform a number of Charm or Guile checks (if she is willing to accept some stress) and a single Action. In our group most players haven't any Social Actions yet, so they rely on skill checks. The few times someone has played a Social Action the result has had limited effect in comparison to the many Charm or Guile checks. In this case Manoeuvres seem to be more important than Actions.

As I see it, both manoeuvres and actions are skill checks. The difference is that manoeuvres are minor actions that can be performed many times on a player's turn(Tome of Adventure, p 51 :"Manoeuvres cover a broad range of minor, incidental, and often automatic achievements."). Actions are more time consuming events that can be performed only once per turn, making a melee atack against someone is not just a taking a swing at someone, it triggers a mini combat episode that consumes most of the time of the turn.

Regarding social encounters, I think that social checks are actually actions. For example, on his turn of social encounter, player sits beside merchant(manouvre), draws a dagger(manouvre), and threatens the merchant(intimidate skill check action that generates a mini episode of roleplaying).

I think a good rule would be: if a skill check is non trivial and time consuming then it should be treated as an action. For example, climbing on top of a carriage would be an athletics skill check manoeuver, but an attempt to tip over a carriage would be an athletics skill check action.

Perform a stunt can be used for non standard actions, but I find it that it's much more fun to just follow the golden rule: If there is at least one success then the action is successful. Other side effects caused by boons, banes, comets, and stars can be narrated on the fly based on context of the situation.

My group has these issues about every time we meet. They consistently feel like they have limited options and or cannot seem to grasp the difference between manuevre and actions. I actually am starting to get a little impatient. It probably does not help much that they want to play the game, but don't actually want to purchase any of the books. I am the lone supplier of all information.

Actions are the actions cards. As previously stated, if they are trying or wanting to do something non standard, I attempt to get them to utilize the "perform a stunt or assess the situation cards" In the very least, it gets them to think outside the box.

More often than not, its what is or is not a manuever that confuses my group. Despite lists and examples etc.

Maybe the groups should sit down and decide together how they're going to handle what they feel is a maneuver and what is an action. Sounds like in some play groups, the kicking/throwing a chair would be an assist maneuver while other GMs would rule it an actin. It all seems to go to the intent.

In one session the Troll Slayer wanted to jump across a burning pyre and pull the helpless victim to safety. I looked at both and simply said it was a performing a stunt action with the appropriate modifiers. The leaping could have been a maneuver, but it seemed to make more sense in that situation and to keep the game moving to have it all folded up into performing a stunt.

simpatikool said:

I Gm'ed now with 5 differents groups of players to make them discover our great WFRP3. My advice :

Maneuver/action : I explain them maneuvers represents all the things they can do through their character like in all RPGs, and the only limit is their fatigue. Then I tell them that, in each of their turn, their character may perform only ONE highlight stuff per turn through ACTION CARD, because the frontier between maneuver and action is given by the rhythm of the narration, of the tale we are creating altogether so to say.

I.E. (a difficult one) : using a skill (maneuver) / Perform a stunt (action)...

• you want to climb to a tree ? it's maneuver. You want to climb that same tree quickly while beastmen are just behind you : that's a performing a stunt.
• Jumping in water to swim after a run ? 1 maneuver to jump without a roll, 1 extra maneuver to swim (AGI). No action card.
• Jumping from a waterfall like tarzan ? 1 Perform a stunt action card to dive, 1 maneuver to swim then (AGI).
• Jumping in water to hit a goblin who swim across the river ? 1 maneuver to jump in the water with an Athletic roll, 1 extra maneuver to engage, 1 melee attack action card. The result of the athletic roll will influence the attack (black/white dices).

Hope it will help you.

PS : if it's not enough, you may PROPOSE them a SOCIAL CONTRACT to determine WHAT IS A TURN :

1. What is your ATTITUDE ? adjust stance,
2. ACT ! What do you DO, including your HIGHLIGHT act of the turn ? Actions cards are special abilities that influe deeply on the balance of the encounter, even basic ones, and you may do that once per round. Beside that you play a narrative roleplaying game, where anything you do is called "maneuver". You may do an infinite number of maneuver, considering you've got 1 free maneuver per turn, then it cost you 1 fatigue per maneuver.
3. RECHARGE ! Don't forget the RECHARGE token ! put them on card used and then take 1 recharge token away from every recharging card.
4. REACT ! be ready to use use your highlight defensive actions (parry, dodge, block...