17 minutes ago, ScottieATF said:

Not understanding that .83 < .5 x 2 sure goes a long way in that regard. And he argued that point for dozens of posts.

...

nope. I'm out.

You win, Scottie.

Now I understand why there was only one reply to this:

20 minutes ago, Kieransi said:

...

nope. I'm out.

You win, Scottie.

Now I understand why there was only one reply to this:

We're talking about a poster from one of the FB groups, not anyone on these forums.

3 minutes ago, ScottieATF said:

We're talking about a poster from one of the FB groups, not anyone on these forums.

Ah! No worries!

I defended Old Ben's immortality here a little pig-headedly as well, so I just wasn't sure... I thought I might be in the rare situation where Soviet Prince was on my side!

Thanks for clearing that up.

As for the original topic, I'm glad C3P0 was cleared up - that was confusing!

32 minutes ago, msieder said:

Reversal

Have you tried it? It's ok. It basically turns the Falcon special into a slightly worse Force Throw special.

Here is why Hyperspace Jump created an issue that isn't present with any other yellow event, and likely won't be unless they print a similar event.

The way you reliably turn after turn triggered the Falcon was to claim the Throne Room and use that to turn the Falcon to a special and resolve it. Claiming opts you out of the turn, but Hyperspace Jump forces your opponent out as well. Thus negating the downside of the reliable Falcon trigger. Another event that doesn't negate that downside means that in order to reliably recur you have to opt out of the turn for real.

4 minutes ago, ScottieATF said:

Have you tried it? It's ok. It basically turns the Falcon special into a slightly worse Force Throw special.

Here is why Hyperspace Jump created an issue that isn't present with any other yellow event, and likely won't be unless they print a similar event.

The way you reliably turn after turn triggered the Falcon was to claim the Throne Room and use that to turn the Falcon to a special and resolve it. Claiming opts you out of the turn, but Hyperspace Jump forces your opponent out as well. Thus negating the downside of the reliable Falcon trigger. Another event that doesn't negate that downside means that in order to reliably recur you have to opt out of the turn for real.

Well said.

The other problem was that now, with SoR and Planetary Uprising, there was a hyperloop. If you had a Millenium Falcon and a Planetary Uprising or two, you would have the first action, roll out the falcon, then on your second action, claim the battlefield and deal your opponents two damage for each Uprising. Your opponent couldn't counter it usually because they only get one action per round, and they slowly lose all their characters to the Uprising... so yeah, that was the ONLY falcon combo that absolutely had to be removed.

1 hour ago, ScottieATF said:

And with all that they also just had to panic ban a card that had just been released as well.

Same block, friend. Don't get me wrong, it was a big deal and quite the SNAFU, and I think we're all still a little bit puzzled as to how Copycat slipped through. But for all of the fuss, one emergency ban does not a pattern make.

3 hours ago, netherspirit1982 said:

Yeah no kidding, they literally just had to ban a card in Standard weeks after it was released, because of an infinite combo.

FFG is stopping before it becomes a problem. Good decision.

It's been around for months, actually. Wizards doesn't have an issue with infinite combos, just overly oppressive deck archetypes. Analyzing just how dominant a given archetype is takes several months worth of data gathering, and bans are only warranted when those cards restrict deck viability. In this case, standard is different enough from Modern that it wasn't guaranteed that a Splinter Twin variant would be so oppressive right off the bat. They had to let the meta run its course before considering a ban.

The more oppressive combo was actually the ORS and Return of the Jedi loop... I never thought of that, but infinite resources? Yes please!

17 minutes ago, Kieransi said:

The more oppressive combo was actually the ORS and Return of the Jedi loop... I never thought of that, but infinite resources? Yes please!

What exactly would you do with all those resources? This game doesn't have a Fireball (yet).

I'm not claiming it's a pattern, although MtG certainly seems to have to give more thought to Standard bannings then they previously did, with 4 coming so far this year, and from what I gather a fair bit of wonder as to why there aren't more.

But despite having every advantage that you say FFG should seek out, they had to do exactly what FFG had to do. And they certainly handled it much worse by announcing no bans and then changing their mind 2 days later because it became apparent through their online client that they did indeed screw up as bad as everyone was saying they did.

Just to be clear, I take no issue with the errata. In fact I think it's a smart move for the long term health of the game, and I'm glad that FFG is finally thinking ahead instead of addressing these issues reactively further down the road, so I'll give credit where it's due.

My one major objection remains the same as it always has: they ought to have known better in the first place. In Wizards' case, it's possible (or even probable) that Copycat suffered a last minute design change that neither development nor the Futures League had the time or wherewithal to catch before it went to print. By contrast, FFG's sheer unwillingness to commit the proper resources to their biggest and most lucrative license seems less like a benign oversight than it does a calculated decision to weigh player attrition against their bottom line. Let's be honest, Star Wars is a cash cow, and they're going to milk it for all it's worth. Why bother investing in experienced game designers, consultants, play testers, or research when you can reap massive profits with a mediocre ruleset and poorly templated cards?

1 hour ago, Docile said:

What exactly would you do with all those resources? This game doesn't have a Fireball (yet).

If you have the lead in damage dealt you loop until time runs out and win on the tie breaker.

These things happen in all these type of games, be it one a couple of decades old or a brand new game with cards fully designed and at the manufacture before the game even releases.

The point is, they fixed the card, without having to ban anything. Great work.

Hyperspace is still a good card that gets the job done without it being broken. It was made for a reason and is very playable without getting banned.

2 hours ago, WonderWAAAGH said:

In Wizards' case, it's possible (or even probable) that Copycat suffered a last minute design change that neither development nor the Futures League had the time or wherewithal to catch before it went to print.

Not that this is really worth stringing out into an argument, but we know for a fact that they actually just straight missed the interaction. It's been stated as such in writing, in at least one article on the main MTG site.

4 hours ago, WonderWAAAGH said:

why bother investing in experienced game designers, consultants, play testers, or research when you can reap massive profits with a mediocre ruleset and poorly templated cards?

So you get a minor variation to the game that they did before and had fail before.

We humans make mistakes, but we learn far more about our efforts for those mistakes, fixing our mistakes and learning from them is important. That (Fixing and Learning) may have a far better effect on the long term health of the game than the fact that mistakes were made.

So thoughts on why ammo belt and second chance interaction was not addressed?

There is a lot of red text in the Replacement Effects section of the rulebook, perhaps the belief is that the new text will explain how they interact without having to specifically spell it out.

Second Chance says “Before attached character would be defeated, instead heal 5 damage from it and discard this upgrade.”

I think that's pretty clear, actually. The "discard this upgrade" part isn't conditional on anything, it's just discarded. There was no errata to say that Ammo Belt is weapon or equipment only, so I can't see a single reason why it couldn't protect Second Chance. Keep in mind, doubling your Second Chance is nice, but it means you can only have a maximum of one upgrade dice being rolled into your pool, so yes, it's good, but it is appropriately priced.

Just for giggles, I have Han with Second Chance and 2xAmmo Belts, when he dies there is an endless loop established where I can discard an Ammo Belt to avoid discarding the other ammo belt and so on and on and on.

I think FFG did a good job on this by not waiting until it could destroy the meta to do something about it. The can not catch ever combination that an entire playerbase can find. Ban/erratas are not a bad thing it's a necessary thing to keep things in balance.

Alright, which one of you guys hacked SP's account and posted something positive under his name?

9 hours ago, msieder said:

So thoughts on why ammo belt and second chance interaction was not addressed?

It might make hero mill viable.

Do we need a list of set aside vs discarded. I'm all for the set aside vs discard. How about if FFG let's us send in our old cards to get the new (correct text) ones by mail. That would make this small problem fade away as people would be like, OMG FFG cares enough to fix their mistakes. Just saying

1 hour ago, ozmodon said:

Do we need a list of set aside vs discarded. I'm all for the set aside vs discard. How about if FFG let's us send in our old cards to get the new (correct text) ones by mail. That would make this small problem fade away as people would be like, OMG FFG cares enough to fix their mistakes. Just saying

Good luck with that... This game has 2 errata'ed cards so far, whereas X-Wing has 27. In addition, X-Wing is more of an LCG model, because you know what you're getting in each pack, so it would be a lot easier to do. Will FFG ever send out a pack of the changed X-Wing cards? Well, we're still waiting...

1 hour ago, Kieransi said:

Good luck with that... This game has 2 errata'ed cards so far, whereas X-Wing has 27. In addition, X-Wing is more of an LCG model, because you know what you're getting in each pack, so it would be a lot easier to do. Will FFG ever send out a pack of the changed X-Wing cards? Well, we're still waiting...

Here's hooping!

15 hours ago, Amanal said:

Just for giggles, I have Han with Second Chance and 2xAmmo Belts, when he dies there is an endless loop established where I can discard an Ammo Belt to avoid discarding the other ammo belt and so on and on and on.

So? Two Cunnings created this from the very beginning.