4 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

Yeah I should say that table is built on a specific premise.

In my GNK final on Sunday I lost against precisely the Dengar build that won worlds, only instead of 40pts of Tel he ran with 42pts of Bossk (without 4-LOM/Zuckuss). So I was doing a direct comparison for the version of Bossk that can partner that Dengar, rather than what you can get for loading Bossk up further.

Ah I see. Yeah if you're not building for max alpha with Zuckuss and 4-LOM, I think you're right and Tel is the better choice.

1 hour ago, Lightrock said:

Not that I disagree with everything that's been said about jumpmasters (sadly I see no good fix short of messing with basic stats...), but I'm still gonna insist that most of the problems with current meta is the result of the damned Sabine crew - a card that can easily compete with JM5K stats for the last year's "f*ck up of the year" award.

Basically, most types of jumpmasters are underpowered (or at least not overpowered) relative to their cost if they can't get their target in arc (FFG nailed this one at least). U-boats are left with 2 dice primary. Dengar isn't worth his points without the counterattack. Unfortunately the white s-loop and the barrel roll make jumpmasters quite good at keeping their targets in arc, but high PS arc-dodgers with autothrusters should still be a massive pain to lists such as the one Justin won with. Unfortunately Fenn is pretty much the only one we see right now (and possibly Teroch sometimes) - and fangs are much more "I'm gonna joust in ya face" than the imperial arc-dodgers used to be. The latter are completely gone and for a good reason. The moment they encounter Sabine-powered K-wings, they might just as well give up. It's almost impossible to avoid at least one bombing run and one is all it takes to pop them. As a result, the jumpmaster's natural enemies have been eliminated by the rebels. All the empire has left is jousters - namely defenders and Quickdraw (yeah, just QD, not TIE/sfs - and only because no one wants to shoot the f*cker). And if the game devolves into a jousting contest, you're gonna end up with the best jouster emerging triumphant. Justin's list is precisely that.

This. This 100%.

Nerfing Jumpmasters will only cause one thing - K-Wing dominance. Then what? Nerf them too?
Instead of constant nerfing till everything goes back to wave 1 meta FFG should consider reverting back at least Palpatine nerf. Only one nerf should be done at this moment - Sabine crew card. This is the one true "hidden" evil.

While everyone is getting up in a tizzy about Jumpmasters winning again, I have to say I have NO problems with either of those lists in the final. Autoblaster Miranda and Tel Trevura? Fantastic!

Yes it's Dengar again, but last year it was Dengar with a load of Zuckuss bull and Manaroo hiding at the back abusing her rangeless support ability. This is Dengar getting up in your face and smashing you down, which is a very different proposition.

The rest of the Top-16 looks pretty toxic, but the final was between two lists I'm happy to see doing well.

Palpatine was one of the worse card ever done in this game: an upgrade able to change 1 die AFTER seeing it to any result, everywhere in the battlefield and every round with no downside in a faction that can easily arc dodge and stack green dice modification?!? Seriously?

People talks like having to get 29 of palpamobile is downside, but that makes no sense. You also have to spend 26-28 points to get Biggs yet none consider it a downside.

Old palpa was a blatant mistake from ffg. Getting rid of the free die result was a step in the right direction. Now we are left with Sabine (needs a range reduction at the very least and probably could also see his auto damage changed to a die roll), attanni (needs to not work when stressed) and the whole undercosted jumpmaster

Manzano use:

Attanni,r4 agro,plasma, i.a. and chip on all Jump.

Extra munition on 2 jump

8 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

While everyone is getting up in a tizzy about Jumpmasters winning again, I have to say I have NO problems with either of those lists in the final. Autoblaster Miranda and Tel Trevura? Fantastic!

Yes it's Dengar again, but last year it was Dengar with a load of Zuckuss bull and Manaroo hiding at the back abusing her rangeless support ability. This is Dengar getting up in your face and smashing you down, which is a very different proposition.

The rest of the Top-16 looks pretty toxic, but the final was between two lists I'm happy to see doing well.

I'll Polyanna even a bit further, and say the whole Top 4 is pretty good; yes, there's a ML list in there, but a) Palob! and b) I mean, a 4 ship Rebel swarm?

Yes, there's balancing to be done, but that's a pretty healthy top of the pile.

Does someone know against which player and list the winner lost during swiss?

9 minutes ago, Sunitsa said:

Palpatine was one of the worse card ever done in this game: an upgrade able to change 1 die AFTER seeing it to any result, everywhere in the battlefield and every round with no downside in a faction that can easily arc dodge and stack green dice modification?!? Seriously?

And yet just before nerf that murdered him he wasn't dominant in the meta at all.

Andrew bunn

Old/Fenn= attanni+Autot+title

Manaroo=attanni+K4+unhiged+anti-pursuit + Bmst (but illicit i don't sure)

Could we all just be happy for the winner and the players and not just argue about nerfing this years winning list to oblivion.

8 minutes ago, Embir82 said:

And yet just before nerf that murdered him he wasn't dominant in the meta at all.

Huh, just like Sabine crew?

Quote

Could we all just be happy for the winner and the players and not just argue about nerfing this years winning list to oblivion.

We could - and I am.

But another JumpMaster nerf has been a long time coming, hopefully this will help it along.

14 minutes ago, Embir82 said:

And yet just before nerf that murdered him he wasn't dominant in the meta at all.

Dominant? No.
He was a crutch though, just like Biggs. Rarely saw an Imperial list without him.

7 minutes ago, Stevey86 said:

Dominant? No.
He was a crutch though, just like Biggs. Rarely saw an Imperial list without him.

Agreed, Palp was a crutch..... but Biggs is a wheelchair

Alamak! How this happen lah? They fix jumpmaster 4 time liao leh. 4 time! FFG bodoh?

1 minute ago, Moppy said:

Alamak! How this happen lah? They fix jumpmaster 4 time liao leh. FFG bodoh?

@stayontheleader:

it's a thing

29 minutes ago, Keffisch said:

We could - and I am.

But another JumpMaster nerf has been a long time coming, hopefully this will help it along.

As a person who likes Jumpmasters...how many more nerfs can you do? Deadeye, manaroo, and now what?

55 minutes ago, Sunitsa said:

Palpatine was one of the worse card ever done in this game: an upgrade able to change 1 die AFTER seeing it to any result, everywhere in the battlefield and every round with no downside in a faction that can easily arc dodge and stack green dice modification?!? Seriously?

People talks like having to get 29 of palpamobile is downside, but that makes no sense. You also have to spend 26-28 points to get Biggs yet none consider it a downside.

Old palpa was a blatant mistake from ffg. Getting rid of the free die result was a step in the right direction. Now we are left with Sabine (needs a range reduction at the very least and probably could also see his auto damage changed to a die roll), attanni (needs to not work when stressed) and the whole undercosted jumpmaster

Range reduction on Sabine wouldn't change much for action-dropped bombs, which are by far the most problematic. Switching the effect to 50% chance is an excellent idea though.

As for Palp... while I disliked the Palp shuttle lists I can't deny the empirical evidence that despite being supposedly OP and terribly balanced he never won the Worlds nor did he even come close to doing so. Compare it to jumpmasters that were 100% of the World's winner lists since their launch and... yeah.

I think Palp is in a good place now. Still worth his 8 points on a Decimator but no longer merits fielding a Lambda just to carry him around.

20 minutes ago, Lightrock said:

Range reduction on Sabine wouldn't change much for action-dropped bombs, which are by far the most problematic. Switching the effect to 50% chance is an excellent idea though.

I've always maintained that the wording should be something along the lines of:

The first time a friendly bomb token is removed each round:
If it was a "reveal" bomb you must choose 1 ship at Range 1 of that token, that ship suffers 1 damage.
If it was an "action" bomb, the ship that overlapped the token suffers 1 damage.

2 hours ago, Terminus-Est said:

I'll Polyanna even a bit further, and say the whole Top 4 is pretty good; yes, there's a ML list in there, but a) Palob! and b) I mean, a 4 ship Rebel swarm?

Yes, there's balancing to be done, but that's a pretty healthy top of the pile.

I don't know... From the available lists at this time, 6 out of the top 16 are Scum Mindlinks and then 6 are unknown. I consider Gerry Russells list sort of an anti-attanni list tbh and I would say that Nands is too, aiming to alpha Protectorates at range 2 and also packing the Autoblaster turret. I would also argue from watching a few of the games that quite a bit of Nands lists success comes from him being an awesome player. With his asteroid placement and approach in the games I watched, he got opponents lined up in the asteroid bubble putting them in a pretty troublesome position.

Bottom line to me still feels like this is the era of Attanni Scum. Not saying that is a bad thing really, just an observation.

Bottom line to me still feels like this is the era of Attannni Scum. Not saying that is a bad thing really, just an observation.

Don't all of the attanni lists have jumpmaster?

Let's make sure we're looking in the right place (the jumpmaster), and that we fix that big problem before we look again at things that might not be a problem once that big problem is (finally) fixed.

17 minutes ago, Moppy said:

Don't all of the attanni lists have jumpmaster?

Let's make sure we're looking in the right place, and that we fix the big problem before we look again at things that might not be a problem once that big problem is (finally) fixed.

No, out of the six known at this time, two did not run any JM. Your point is still very valid though.

3 hours ago, Luis1183 said:

As a person who likes Jumpmasters...how many more nerfs can you do? Deadeye, manaroo, and now what?

As many as it takes to bring that undercosted ship back under control?

Devs keep missing the mark though, imho - just remove the EPT from the Contracted Scout, Set Manaroo's ability to R2 and bump the JM5K basecost up by 3-4 points, done.

5 hours ago, CRCL said:

With Zuckuss, 4-LOM and his ability, Bossk does do the alpha-strike better. He can quite easily deal 5 hits to a ship, even to turtled up ships. It's debatable whether that's better than Tel's consistency throughout the game.

Dont think it's that debatable. One won Worlds. The other did not.

Bossk is dead once Miranda etc gets behind him. Tel just sloops.