I don't know. A year without new product would be devastating to the game.

3 hours ago, Sithborg said:

I don't know. A year without new product would be devastating to the game.

So are you waiting for the expansions for Star trek Ascendancy too? (sorry just got to send jabs at GF9).

Well that would be the literal end of the game since it is designed to be a living collectible miniatures table top game with new waves periodically every few months. So if a year goes by and no new X-wing product, the game is over. Sure I'm sure some fans will try and give it a continuation (there is one for the old Decipher games and Star Wars is in there). They might make new cards for old ships or bring in the shapeway models for fans, but for the most part the game is over. Which a 2nd edition would be good then. I'm not sure the whole it is popular so we got to break it until it is fixed is the best approach. The whole strike while the iron is hot, not going to happen.

On 5/1/2017 at 10:39 PM, Sithborg said:

I think, again, people are ignoring the business side of the matter. There was over a year between Descent and Descent 2nd. I think there was also supposed to be nearly a year between when AGOT ended and AGOT 2 was released.

So, about a year of no new X-wing products. And a meta that will have no new cards or ships to shake things up. For their biggest game.

So yes, X-wing is too big to kill off for a second edition. Would WOTC seriously stop printing Magic cards for a year to "fix the game"?

So my counter-argument to this attitude has been percolating around, and it's this:

Battletech.

Have you ever played it? Have you ever heard of it? Maybe you've heard of MechWarrior Online, the descendant of Battletech, but Battletech itself was a dead game for many years - and dying even when it was still being produced by FASA in 1997 thanks to multiple poor decisions and competition from fresh blood. Namely, Games Workshop. In retrospect, it played BADLY - it was clunky, extremely small, didn't scale up, had tons of rules for tons of situations none of which related to each other... it was a very 1980's wargame.

Nowadays, they have a very playable version of the game called Alpha Strike - it's some of the most fun I've had with my pants on when it comes to giant stompy robots, it's well balanced, and... no one plays it . Almost no one has heard of it. Because instead of trying to revise the game when the popularity was at its height, FASA shuttered up and lost market share, and now the only people who play it are the guys for whom Battletech is their first wargame.

Or what about Warhammer Fantasy Battle? Time was that it was second in popularity only to Warhammer 40k. You can't really blame Privateer Press for stealing the audience there - straight fantasy epic armies versus steam-powered magically controlled robots isn't much of a competition. Instead, the game went through Typical GW Cycling, because GW was confident it would always be top dog of wargames and even their BAD games would still sell, and....

It's dead. Anyone who cares about epic fantasy armies from the old GW days is playing Kings of War, and there's a new market for it with the Runewars stuff.

Compare that to Malifaux or Warmachine - M2.0 came out at a height of its profitability because the devs realized their game was impossibly clunky, and WM/H is on its third revision for good **** reason (they wanted to make it about the giant stompy robots and scary big monsters instead of infantry swarms!). Rather than wait until people left in droves because the game was unplayable, they said, "We're doing this, folks, buckle up because we'll have a much better game out the other end..."

And they were right.

A game that waits to reinvent itself until it's dead stays dead . You need to strike while the iron is hot and the community is large; while you'll lose SOME people, a good revision ensures that it'll be as few as possible, and make it more accessible so that you'll pick up more people afterwards - some of which will be the "NeverEditioners" slinking back.

Comparing this game to a wargame is nonsensical, because the sales model is extremely different. Even with a conversion kit, no one here cannot tell me that there will be new cards that you will want in any 2nd edition product. And frankly, a year is generous considering what everyone is demanding. AGOT took about a year, and they didn't have to redesign every card for the new game. With such a long absence, you risk losing your playerbase to a new game. There is a reason that FFG limits the amount of LCGs they produce.

11 minutes ago, iamfanboy said:

... it's some of the most fun I've had with my pants on when it comes to giant stompy robots ...

What do you do with your pants off when it comes to giant stompy robots?

Just now, TheHumanHydra said:

What do you do with your pants off when it comes to giant stompy robots?

hey man, what happens on Solaris VII stays on Solaris VII, and I don't kiss and tell - even when it comes to giant stompy robots.

5 minutes ago, Sithborg said:

Comparing this game to a wargame is nonsensical, because the sales model is extremely different. Even with a conversion kit, no one here cannot tell me that there will be new cards that you will want in any 2nd edition product. And frankly, a year is generous considering what everyone is demanding. AGOT took about a year, and they didn't have to redesign every card for the new game. With such a long absence, you risk losing your playerbase to a new game. There is a reason that FFG limits the amount of LCGs they produce.

What the...

Are you...

Oh, gods, I need this right now.

You have playing pieces and you are fighting a war via a game. What else would you call it?

Just because it has a different selling style than 40k or Battletech, doesn't make it any less of a wargame. Heroclix, Mage Knight, Mechwarrior Dark Ages all had prepainted miniatures with rotating dials, and they are all wargames.

And, frankly, your idea of how it would be rolled out some of the most ridiculous strawmanning I've ever seen - to use a much kinder adjective than the others floating in my head right now. If they do this, they don't need to rebalance EVERY card; do we really NEED 10 different X-Wing pilots (of which only three or four are EVER used) or eight different TIE/FO pilots? "Oh, no, I'm really going to miss Epsilon Ace, he was my favoritest pilot of all, now I will never play the game again..."

It took Privateer Press six months to playtest the new edition, kept up community hype and interest by getting them involved in it, then three months to roll out, and that is a MUCH more complicated game than X-Wing could ever become. Frankly, I despise its complication (and only play it because I have this friend who lurves it...), but it's the perfect counter to anyone who argues the same point as you. It was done by a smaller company with less staff, and in looking back in the forums there were people who made the exact same head in the sand argument that you're rolling out now .

They were wrong, so there's no reason to believe that you are right, unless FFG completely fluffs it up.

I wouldn't put it past them to do that. Since Asmodee has taken control, have you noticed a distinct drop in print quantity and quality? Like, my FLGS asked for 6 boxes of the new Star Wars Destiny but because FFG printed so little of it he only got allotted one box - and he's returning that because he can't in good faith carry it in his store if only one person gets it all and then resells it online for a yuuuge markup. And I had to go online to buy an Armada Imperial Light Cruiser because it's out of stock at the distributors, and even online it was not common.

28 minutes ago, Sithborg said:

Comparing this game to a wargame is nonsensical, because the sales model is extremely different. Even with a conversion kit, no one here cannot tell me that there will be new cards that you will want in any 2nd edition product. And frankly, a year is generous considering what everyone is demanding. AGOT took about a year, and they didn't have to redesign every card for the new game. With such a long absence, you risk losing your playerbase to a new game. There is a reason that FFG limits the amount of LCGs they produce.

However an official campaign box would solve both issues, balance older ships, and allow FFG to keep it's current business model. Might be a couple of 3 ship waves, but benefit is the team gets to roll out just about everything people want.

My theory is that were going to get a "battle for lothal" set after season 4 airs (cuz it's got x-wings!), but also includes new stuff for the regular tie /LN, maybe the TAP, the interceptor, Defender, A-wing, B-wing, Y-wing, YT-2400, U-wing, maybe the fang fighter, etc.

I have observed and heard stories about how FFG handles a new edition. I love FFG. But I make no bones about them being my drug dealer of choice. By your own logic, FFG taking 2 years to release L5R is just plain lazy, since you claim such redesigns could take 6 months. Everything I've seen says FFG puts a LOT of time in new games and new editions. If the last cycle of AGOT wasn't heavily delayed, 2015 would've been barren of AGOT stuff until the release of the new game in fall.

2 minutes ago, FlyingAnchors said:

However an official campaign box would solve both issues, balance older ships, and allow FFG to keep it's current business model. Might be a couple of 3 ship waves, but benefit is the team gets to roll out just about everything people want.

My theory is that were going to get a "battle for lothal" set after season 4 airs (cuz it's got x-wings!), but also includes new stuff for the regular tie /LN, maybe the TAP, the interceptor, Defender, A-wing, B-wing, Y-wing, YT-2400, U-wing, maybe the fang fighter, etc.

Such a product isn't exactly what we are talking about.

12 minutes ago, Sithborg said:

I have observed and heard stories about how FFG handles a new edition. I love FFG. But I make no bones about them being my drug dealer of choice. By your own logic, FFG taking 2 years to release L5R is just plain lazy, since you claim such redesigns could take 6 months. Everything I've seen says FFG puts a LOT of time in new games and new editions. If the last cycle of AGOT wasn't heavily delayed, 2015 would've been barren of AGOT stuff until the release of the new game in fall.

Neither of those things are their flagship products, either - the cash cow they're milking as hard as they can (just how many different Star Wars games does FFG make now? Six? Seven?) Presumably they'd step up the pace as much as possible.

But yes, I do think that they aren't going to do it. In all likelihood, what FFG is going to do is the same thing that all the previous licensees have done: Milk the cow until nothing but dust comes out, then give it back to the original owner with a shrug and a "Sorry, man." Sadly, that attitude will leave us with a bunch of plastic ships and broken hearts.

Second Edition isn't something that needs to be done right now . But it's something that, if we want the game to be around for another ten years, should be done very soon - soon enough that they should already be spitballing stuff with their playtesters for a rollout in 2019.

It's a cycle that is dreadfully familiar to any wargamer - game starts out small and light, then more and more stuff gets added on until it collapses under its on weight unless a new edition comes out. Hell, that's how D&D worked for editions 1-4; thank the Maker that 5e's developers seem to have the philosophy of "We want to use the same PHB in 2024 as we had in 2014."

When it happens, we will know long before the official announcement.

And calling AGOT and L5R not flagship products seems a little... self centered.

3 minutes ago, Sithborg said:

When it happens, we will know long before the official announcement.

And calling AGOT and L5R not flagship products seems a little... self centered.

Which earns FFG more money: Star Wars or Game of Thrones?

Which one has more world-spanning tournament support: X-Wing, or L5R?

Answer honestly, now. I do like L5R a great deal, but I'm not going to delude myself that it's somehow the foundation of FFG's profit margin.

That reminds me, though. Need to look for a Bayushi Kachiko mini from the old wargame.

Just now, Sithborg said:

Such a product isn't exactly what we are talking about.

I know but it beats the alternative of having a new 2nd edition. Because as you pointed out above, if FFG is going to overhaul the golden goose, the're going to do it right. Which will take time. Allot of time.

19 minutes ago, iamfanboy said:

If they do this, they don't need to rebalance EVERY card; do we really NEED 10 different X-Wing pilots (of which only three or four are EVER used) or eight different TIE/FO pilots?

If you really have to ask that question I am going to seriously consider questioning whether or not you've ever played the game or your some accountant in a terrible office job whose sole source of entertainment is browsing the forums. The X-wing is the most iconic ship in all of star wars. It's the one that the non-fans remember something about. (as well as the TIE fighter and Falcon). Subsequently, It's also one of the most requested fix/add pilots to ship on the forums. Cutting back the number of T-65 pilots starting out would be a terrible idea. Also lets not forget your basically mentioning we just recycle most of first edition, so why even bother with a 2nd edition? You want X-wing 1.5, and 1.5 editions suck. Because not only do they never address all the issues at hand, they introduce enough new stuff to create whole new problems.

If you want people to still play the game you'll integrate allot more than 10 X-wing pilots into your hypothetical 2nd edition. (Rogue one, rebels season 4, looking at about 20 X-wing pilots, which also means more TIE/LN pilots)

Just now, FlyingAnchors said:

I know but it beats the alternative of having a new 2nd edition. Because as you pointed out above, if FFG is going to overhaul the golden goose, the're going to do it right. Which will take time. Allot of time.

If you really have to ask that question I am going to seriously consider questioning whether or not you've ever played the game or your some accountant in a terrible office job whose sole source of entertainment is browsing the forums. The X-wing is the most iconic ship in all of star wars. It's the one that the non-fans remember something about. (as well as the TIE fighter and Falcon). Subsequently, It's also one of the most requested fix/add pilots to ship on the forums. Cutting back the number of T-65 pilots starting out would be a terrible idea. Also lets not forget your basically mentioning we just recycle most of first edition, so why even bother with a 2nd edition? You want X-wing 1.5, and 1.5 editions suck. Because not only do they never address all the issues at hand, they introduce enough new stuff to create whole new problems.

If you want people to still play the game you'll integrate allot more than 10 X-wing pilots into your hypothetical 2nd edition. (Rogue one, rebels season 4, looking at about 20 X-wing pilots, which also means more TIE/LN pilots)

...I'm going to guess you haven't read my other posts in this thread.

7 hours ago, iamfanboy said:

...I'm going to guess you haven't read my other posts in this thread.

It's my experience that people around here prefer to talk at people, rather than read what others have to say. I can think of 3 posts off the top of my head that I made where people argued with me by bringing up points I preemptively addressed in my original freaking post. Infuriating.

10 hours ago, mkevans80 said:

It's my experience that people around here prefer to talk at people, rather than read what others have to say. I can think of 3 posts off the top of my head that I made where people argued with me by bringing up points I preemptively addressed in my original freaking post. Infuriating.

I'm with you there!

I've paid a lot of money for this game. I want the problems fixed before I spend more money. I really don't care if it is a update/revision or a 2nd edition. Just fix the game and stop coming up with excuses not to!

8 hours ago, devotedknight said:

I'm with you there!

I've paid a lot of money for this game. I want the problems fixed before I spend more money. I really don't care if it is a update/revision or a 2nd edition. Just fix the game and stop coming up with excuses not to!

It's not that easy. Developing and playtesting fixes takes time. And the most valid excuse is that 'fixing the game' is probably an endless process.

I am not keen on 2.0.

1.) Re-buy the ships .... NO

2.) Card packs, would have to be made cost effective, like groups of waves. I am not shelling out $$ for one pack per ship.... Be the same as buying the ships over....

What they could do is issue fixes via an expansion thats full of cards that address the issues...

On 5/2/2017 at 2:54 PM, Darth Meanie said:

While I cannot argue with your opinion that 2.0 is not needed, saying that 2.0 should not be done because it will only fix problems for a time is like saying you shouldn't bother dealing with the "check engine" light because the car will only wind up with problems later.

But if the check engine light can be fixed by replacing a part would it not be easier to do that than to buy a brand new car?

4 hours ago, 4fox100 said:

But if the check engine light can be fixed by replacing a part would it not be easier to do that than to buy a brand new car?

I'm sorry, but the T-15 just isn't what it used to be. Have you seen the T-16?

16 hours ago, 4fox100 said:

But if the check engine light can be fixed by replacing a part would it not be easier to do that than to buy a brand new car?

What's the cost of the part? How much value is left in the car? Can I purchase a new vehicle and still be within my budget? There's a lot to consider.

The big pro I see is to take some lessons they've learned from other games. Adding different dice to represent Ion Canons, lasers, bombs and missiles would help to differentiate ships while not forcing a creep in the number of dice necessary to make a ship work. Heck, even the defense dice could have different types if they wanted.

I have piles of upgrades that aren't really worthwhile either. Drop them.

Drop the mid-level generic pilots that don't see a ton of use.

Rebalance ships and use the lessons learned from wave 9+10 on early release ships.

Add objectives to the game for tournaments.

At $40-50, I'd happily buy an expansion that upgrades all the cards, rule books, and cardboard for each faction. $150 is nothing compared to what I've spent on games.

5 minutes ago, ricefrisbeetreats said:

What's the cost of the part? How much value is left in the car? Can I purchase a new vehicle and still be within my budget? There's a lot to consider.

The big pro I see is to take some lessons they've learned from other games. Adding different dice to represent Ion Canons, lasers, bombs and missiles would help to differentiate ships while not forcing a creep in the number of dice necessary to make a ship work. Heck, even the defense dice could have different types if they wanted.

I have piles of upgrades that aren't really worthwhile either. Drop them.

Drop the mid-level generic pilots that don't see a ton of use.

Rebalance ships and use the lessons learned from wave 9+10 on early release ships.

At $40-50, I'd happily buy an expansion that upgrades all the cards, rule books, and cardboard for each faction. $150 is nothing compared to what I've spent on games.

A $40 pack per faction for a 2nd edition is probably the best way of doing it, because it won't alienate people but also will earn money for FFG. Especially if it contains everything needed (i.e. any new dice, new tokens, new bases, dials, cards, etc).

4 hours ago, ricefrisbeetreats said:

Drop the mid-level generic pilots that don't see a ton of use.

I may be in the minority, but this would be quite a bummer for me. One of the things I personally would want to see in a 2.0 is an emphasis on generics. Each of these recent waves have incorporated more aggressively priced named pilots or super abilities which pushes the game further toward ace-wing.

Don't get me wrong. I love having named aces a part of this game and I think it's awesome to come up with cool combos and gimmicks based off pilot abilities. I also used to really enjoy list building with low-mid PS generics because of the challenge of no EPT and upgrade limitations. That puts the emphasis soundly on flying over combos and gets to the root of the game. There are a handful of generics that are considered viable today like the stresshog/TLT and proto A-wings, but there are so many other platforms just gathering dust. I'm talking about generic B wings, fangs, X-wings, Tie/FOs, phantoms, and even the imp Tie/ln fighter (poor fellow has been put out to pasture). It's a shame because all of these are so much fun to fly! There should be some way to make these viable at a range of PS by focusing on their cost efficiency for the ship platform and knowing you pay a premium for a fancy gimmick.

I don't think you can make that change with another upgrade to generics like a title or extra modification slot. That just means that when Timmy buys a T-65 because he thinks they're cool and wants to fly a thematic generic pilot he still needs to go out and buy the T-70 expansion for Integrated and then whatever the "fix" is just to bring it to a local tournament and put it on the table without getting steamrolled. That's a lot of bloat.

I miss the days when accuracy corrector Temptest/Storms or FCS Blues were a thing. Lambdas used to be solid cost-effective HLC platforms and now nobody will consider them without Palp, and that's arguable for some folks now too. All of these heavily emphasized smart play, arc prediction, and a thought out first engagement. It's hard to justify putting any of these old ships on the table when named value pilots like Sabacc and Omega Leader exist for the same budget price (see: power creep). I'd like to see a regression back to the roots of smart flying and effective positioning with raw platform efficiency be an option in a future competitive setting.

That's just me though. Your experience may differ .

I'd be interested in another edition ONLY if it comes with a conversion kit that includes new rules for the majority of models I already own to move them into the next edition. And that has to land with the core set at launch.