8 minutes ago, Turbo Toker said:

This is just you being anal.

Ships that have a lot of maneuvers are just fine currently, and there aren't many more new maneuvers that can be added without it getting nonsensical like reverse K-Turns.

Ships that want more than 4 actions in their action bar can equip an upgrade card. If you want the ability to have boost on the action bar of a TIE Phantom, you can just equip Engine Upgrade to it. The fact that it's on an upgrade card does not mean that the game is broken and we need a 2.0.

Stop trying to ruin this game.

You know, every time I think I've read the dumbest thing posted on the Internet this week, somebody goes and throws in their hat for consideration.

Congratulations? Your post is needlessly hostile, and provides no valuable insight, analysis, or feedback. You are this forum's LVP.

In terms of card real estate, there is the entire back of the card that currently goes unused. You wouldn't want to do a lot with it, but it has terrific potential to clean up things; particularly as we're seeing FFG see the need for ships to have unique rules associated with them.

2 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

Unplayed by the meta is not the same as banned.

And since you used that as an example, what if FFG had actually banned Whisper and Echo, and reissued 2 Phantom aces with lower PS? It's possible they could have left the cloaking RULES untouched and still eliminated the "unbeatable high PS cloaker." Maybe the Phantom could have been a reasonably balanced ship rather than go from OP to dead.

No, it's true that unplayed in the meta is not the same as banned. But the annoying parts are still removed and that was the goal to begin with.

I don't see what would have been gained by keeping the original decloaking rules intact. It would just have constrained design space.

If you don't want to be labeled the Least Valuable Poster, only post valuable stuff.

Nothing you said in your reply to me was intelligent, insightful or valuable. You offer nothing of value to this forum. If you don't want to re-buy stuff, that's fine. However, the fixes I suggested are quite needed if there is a second edition, and you offered no analysis to suggest why they weren't. In fact, you didn't even appear to understand why I said the dials were a problem, lol. You thought I was suggesting the game invent new maneuvers, when it was clear that I was saying that the physical size of the dial means ships have a maximum number of theoretical maneuvers they can contain before no more maneuvers will fit on the dial.

Stop acting like a child.

My voice as a customer matters more than your voice

LOL. What are you, 12?

Turbo would seem less hostile if his avatar wasn't screaming.

I would welcome a new version. We've already got a new damage deck, a long-ish list of erratas, a vast majority of pilots that are unusable competitively, a bunch of added mechanisms, and several others that could use a reworking/upgrade (eg. accuracy vs damage, stress). An updated set of rules and cards that would iron out all of these issues, while allowing us to keep using our existing models, would be greatly appreciated.

That said, we have two significant issues:
1) FFG makes at least part of its money (how significant is it? I couldn't tell) by selling ships to people who only care about the upgrade cards bundled with a ship they have no intention of owning (or owning multiples of).

I, for one, disapprove and think it's an anti-consumer practice (and I won't buy in that situation, even if it means I'm missing a card I might want for a certain build), but it seems to be working for them, so would they give up on this potential revenue by selling a card/cardstock only upgrade pack, which would allow people to buy several upgrades they want without forking over the cash for unwanted plastic?

You might say this only affects tournament players and casual players can simply proxy. I'm personally a bit OCD about that kind of thing, and while I'm a casual player, I do not proxy - and I'm sure there'll be a few others like me around.

2) How would they package the upgrade? One upgrade pack for each faction? One for each wave? This complicates things consumer-wise, because some people may have multiples of a given ship, but not of others, which will invariably lead to redundant purchases and wasted cards/cardboard.

One upgrade pack for each ship would definitely make the SKUs a bit too messy to sell, distribute and localize in the various countries, so maybe a faction pack with educated guesses as to how many of each ship people might own could be a good (or less-bad) choice, as in: include 2-4 tie fighters, 1-2 of the other small ships, one of each large ship for a hypothetical Empire pack.

So, these are not-very-easy issues FFG needs to solve, and I believe they'll postpone solving these for as long as they can. I could see them doing this in a few years time, as their XWing sales take a dip, along with a new starter set, as a way to renew interest in the game. I would be (pleasantly) surprised if they decide to do it while sales remain strong (as they appear to do), especially while there are mainline movies in the main trilogy coming out every other year to keep the franchise fresh in people's minds.

Anyway. If I had to take a wild guess (as in: 5% chance of happening, with any other alternative being lower chance than that) on when they do release a 2.0, I'd say 2019, along with Episode IX, for a big boost in popularity as the new trilogy comes to an end.

1 hour ago, 4fox100 said:

I probably should have said that IF that was the case i would not play. The big problem I have is that imo we do not need a 2.0 version. The game is pretty well balanced as is. Sure it isn't perfect but look at any game you like and ypu will see that there always tends to be things in that game that is more effective than others. Xwing is no exception. Creating a 2.0 version will create its own balance issues down the road (hindsight is 20/20 after all). For a good example of this look at ordnance and bombs. Since the dawn of the game people have been wanting a fix to make them good. Now they are good and pwople want nerfs. Will a 2.0 version really cause all these 'problems' to end? For a time maybe but sooner or later the work to 'fix' the game will be ruined by a good combo or exploitation of the mechanics.

While I cannot argue with your opinion that 2.0 is not needed, saying that 2.0 should not be done because it will only fix problems for a time is like saying you shouldn't bother dealing with the "check engine" light because the car will only wind up with problems later.

23 hours ago, Verlaine said:

It's mostly a guess, but I think that if a 2nd edition is made, it will not invalidate the existing materials and certainly not the models. Maybe one needs to play with a huge update document to make the old versions of cards work, but if that is a free download you don't need to buy everything again.

And this is assuming such an edition will be made at all.

So the responses in the vein 'I spent XXXX and will not do so again so I am not going to buy a 2nd edition' seem very premature indeed. In fact, I predict most who respond in said manner will, in fact, buy into a new edition.

And the situation would not be that different from the current. Because of power creep, any player who wishes to be competitive against the larger body of X-Wing players has to spend money on new stuff. So you're always urged to spend more, and it is not a given that a 2nd edition will be more expensive in comparison.

If you're afraid that the old material can be trashed with a 2nd edition - wake up, this has already happened: we are sitting on piles of underpowered cards that have been replaced by better ones.

If the cards are invalidated in 2nd ed. that is fine, but the one thing that cannot be invalidated is the models. That is what GW did with every edition and every new edition saw an exodus of players. Age of Sigmar was a genocide of older models.

Yeesh, I would no doubt abandon the game if I had to rebuy models. I mostly buy the game for the ship models anyway, and by that point I'd have a ton of them. Enough to fit several shelves, likely (I currently have one shelf worth of them, and I'm still missing several ships I want).

59 minutes ago, LunarSol said:

In terms of card real estate, there is the entire back of the card that currently goes unused. You wouldn't want to do a lot with it, but it has terrific potential to clean up things; particularly as we're seeing FFG see the need for ships to have unique rules associated with them.

I have always wished that they used the backs of the cards for flavor text. Generics could have some info on the ship itself and uniques would have a brief bio of the pilot (settling issues of the gender of some newer pilots).

24 minutes ago, Forgottenlore said:

I have always wished that they used the backs of the cards for flavor text. Generics could have some info on the ship itself and uniques would have a brief bio of the pilot (settling issues of the gender of some newer pilots).

A pilot picture and bio on the back of the card would be lovely, yes.

1 hour ago, Marinealver said:

If the cards are invalidated in 2nd ed. that is fine, but the one thing that cannot be invalidated is the models. That is what GW did with every edition and every new edition saw an exodus of players. Age of Sigmar was a genocide of older models.

Since the ships are not really FFG's sole property, that seems unlikely? I mean, it's not as if TIE fighters are suddenly passé.

Do you think that there are models that FFG secretly or not-so-secretly wants to get rid of? The situation in X-Wing just seems different from that in GW games. GW have their own IP. The GW game that was based on a movie (Lord of the Rings) never invalidated models!

37 minutes ago, Verlaine said:

Since the ships are not really FFG's sole property, that seems unlikely? I mean, it's not as if TIE fighters are suddenly passé.

Do you think that there are models that FFG secretly or not-so-secretly wants to get rid of? The situation in X-Wing just seems different from that in GW games. GW have their own IP. The GW game that was based on a movie (Lord of the Rings) never invalidated models!

Imperial Firespray. I'm pretty sure if they knew S&V was a thing, that ship would never have been Imperial (although it made sense at the time).

And maybe they should let go of the TIE Punisher and try again with Gunboat.

I don't want to steal your idea, but I think that would be an interesting thread topic.

2 hours ago, Verlaine said:

No, it's true that unplayed in the meta is not the same as banned. But the annoying parts are still removed and that was the goal to begin with.

I don't see what would have been gained by keeping the original decloaking rules intact. It would just have constrained design space.

For what? All the other ships with cloaking??

On 5/1/2017 at 10:40 AM, iamfanboy said:

So what you're saying is that you'll throw away what, $400 of your money or more, a game you enough about to rack up a post count of over 9,000, and an entire social group, for the sake of $50? Your declaration seems more dramatic than factual.

When Malifaux went to 2.0, there were people who made impassioned declarations that they would do exactly this. A few of them actually did do that... and then slowly went to 2.0 when they realized that it was actually a better game. The few holdouts are the same sort of people who were Coke fans that flipped the table when told they'd picked Pepsi over Coke in the Pepsi Challenge - jerks who can't admit they were wrong, even about the tiniest things.

It's not the $40 or $50 dollars, my man. It's the principle of having to redo everything. I'm right there with him in that I wouldn't buy in to a new version, regardless of cost (for me). I will say, though, that the best thing a new version would do would be to get me off the waffling fence I'm on about buying any more waves. Version 1.0 would be a completed game if a second version were introduced, and the completionist in me would want to finish the waves at that point. As is right now, with no end in sight, I have nary the desire nor impetus to complete the waves like I used to (which I admit is weird being a completionist), but that could change whether there is a second version or not. It's simply a cash cow that I keep pouring money into and I don't play it like I used to. Bit of burnout, I guess.

I'm not dogging anyone. I'm just saying I understand where he's coming from.

1 minute ago, rym said:

It's not the $40 or $50 dollars, my man. It's the principle of having to redo everything. I'm right there with him in that I wouldn't buy in to a new version, regardless of cost (for me). I will say, though, that the best thing a new version would do would be to get me off the waffling fence I'm on about buying any more waves. Version 1.0 would be a completed game if a second version were introduced, and the completionist in me would want to finish the waves at that point. As is right now, with no end in sight, I have nary the desire nor impetus to complete the waves like I used to (which I admit is weird being a completionist), but that could change whether there is a second version or not. It's simply a cash cow that I keep pouring money into and I don't play it like I used to. Bit of burnout, I guess.

I'm not dogging anyone. I'm just saying I understand where he's coming from.

There are a lot of different and fun ways to play the game - the basic engine of the game (choose maneuver, reveal maneuver in ascending order of pilot skill, choose action, resolve attacks in descending order of pilot skill) is solid. Heroes of the Aturi Cluster is great, as is the Mario Kart (I prefer Kessel Kup, it seems less undignified and more Star Wars-y), and I do like Epic because it plays like a real wargame at about 2-3 hours - instead of the micro-size of standard X-Wing, which really feels more like "40k in 40 Minutes" in that it's big enough to LOOK like a wargame, but not big enough to really DO any kind of tactics.

The revision would be, in theory, for tournament play, just to make it... broader. Not bigger, mind, but less laser-focused on one thing that rewards one build of ship.

@Sithborg, one of the reasons I favor a "Ship card with a Pilot upgrade card" system is because it 1) cuts down on cardboard real estate and 2) makes it a lot easier to print the revised card packs if you only have to do one HWK-290 or 4 TIE/Interceptors in a pack and then package them with their pilots.

It's just that... the game is too complicated. There's too much legacy stuff stacked on itself, too many years of no unified vision, too many useless or pointless upgrades, and too many blatant mistakes with ship stats, pricing, and dials. It's starting to reach a critical mass of being too much for veteran players to want to keep going and too much for beginning players to absorb.

Oh, I'm right there with you on the various ways to play. We do fur ball, Epic, (really, really) want to try Mario Kart, and we've even combined D&D Attack Wing with X-Wing (Solo and company pop out of hyperspace from a warped drive into a raging dragon battle whilst being chased by bounty hunters. Much, much fun and made for a great 4-way game).

I guess I should've clarified that my burnout is partially to do with the generic 100/6 that permeates the majority of these forums and partially to do with the constant release of new waves. Maybe space them out more or something. I feel oversaturated with product to the point that I can barely keep up with what's been released and can hardly get it to the table before something else comes along. Lol, I guess the flip side of that coin is that there is lots of stuff out there to play now.

1 hour ago, Darth Meanie said:

And maybe they should let go of the TIE Punisher and try again with Gunboat.

I hate to say it, but I love that ridiculous monstrosity of a model that is the TIE Punisher. I'd like to see it work. (I can take or leave the Gunboat, since I never played the video games, don't know anything about it, and so don't give two farts about it.)

31 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:

I hate to say it, but I love that ridiculous monstrosity of a model that is the TIE Punisher. I'd like to see it work. (I can take or leave the Gunboat, since I never played the video games, don't know anything about it, and so don't give two farts about it.)

I have yet to revisit the Punisher in the age of guidance chips and lightened frame. It is one of my next list experiments. Still, I'd love to see gunboat simply to have a ship without solar panels...

5 hours ago, VaeVictis said:

As long as it fixes the two biggest mechanical problems with the game:

Undersized dials literally cannot physically contain enough maneuvers for some ships)

Bad card organization: font sizes limit ships to 4 maximum action choices, but for some reason the upgrade bar can fit more upgrade icons than any ship will ever have, lol.

And then rebalances the early wave ships with the maneuvers and upgrade types that came out after they were released.

Minor point: some ships do actually use the entire space of the upgrade bar

Well for those that want to change up the business model saying upgrades are anti-consumer, don't make me laugh have you seen MTG random boosters?

Those that want to see Turrets removed from the game, I already made suggestions for an alternative game, Armada.

Now for mechanics change, well the biggest question is what would need to be changed? There are some that say alternate dice. Maybe a different one for missile and torpedoes or a different dice for shields that replace agility. Could be interesting but again adding complexity doesn't make the game better, and even with added complexity if the game is popular enough the meta game would get solved.

There are also those that say dials better for the early ships. Now keep in mind that maneuver creep was not introduced to make newer ships better, it was intended to open up the design space so that you don't have identical ship dials.

Honestly the only improvement I think 2nd edition could do is well design Scum from wave 1. Scum has sort of turned into the most divisive feature. In a way it opened up the design and play space and decreased the number of faction mirrors. But also in a way it has had to play catch up and now all the momentum that was given to it to get it up to par with the other factions has carried way beyond the other two. So now FFG has to either put it more power creep into the rebels and imperials or keep hitting scum with the nerf bat some more.

But as far as X-wing goes, everything else is fine. 2nd ed. is not going to be coming for a while, and with new Disney Movies and shows there will be plenty of source material to draw from before FFG will need to start thinking about a 2nd edition. When we start moving towards the H-wing and the TIE-Abomination, and Scum may be considering Yuzzh Vong ships, that's when it is time to go 2nd ed.

It is quite unfortunate that there are some who have the attitude that if there is a revision/update/2nd edition, they’re going to take their miniatures and go home. Well, this is eventually going to happen in one form or another. So instead of getting upset, I would just sell your miniatures now and find another game. X-wing is expensive.

First: There are many more player who want FFG to fix their mess, than those people who don’t. Either with a Revision, an Update or a 2nd edition,

Second: I know many players who have already quit the game because of game design flaws and imbalances. They would come back if this problem were fixed, (I believe more players would return to X-Wing than leave it. (And I bet everyone here knows people who have left the game already. But would return if FFG fixed their problems.)

I’m very reluctant to buy new miniature because of big holes in the rules, which means I play less and less. The FFG designers know exactly what these design flaws and games imbalances are. But FFG chooses to keep throwing band aids on design flaws, Instead of FIXING these problems.

FFG took my and everyone else's money, it is the least they can do is fix the game.

JMHO.

5 minutes ago, devotedknight said:

First: There are many more player who want FFG to fix their mess, than those people who don’t. Either with a Revision, an Update or a 2nd edition,

Proof?

Read the thread?

1 hour ago, Derpzilla88 said:

Proof?

1 hour ago, devotedknight said:

Read the thread?

Well yeah it proves that there are some interests but it also proves that there is a lot opposed (7 pages good grief).

Now for those for the 2nd edition (lets see if I get this thesis right) is that the design space is too crowded and it is the only way to balance X-wings. The supporting arguments, the Jumpmaster and all the nerfs. Now honestly that is not a very strong argument. X-wing imbalances can be fix without a restart of the game. Especially with the new measures that FFG has incorporated. Will scum win worlds again? Well good question because although they won last year less time has passed so only one wave but there's been a lot of heavy handed errata nerfs, so maybe. I don;t think Imperials will be on top so it could but then again I think Wave 11 and 12 will fix that considerably.

Now for the counter-thesis 2nd edition would destroy X-wing? Well the possibility is there but I doubt FFG will Age of Sigmar X-wing. If FFG does a 2nd edition, the best way to do it is in a manner that allows players to migrate their models over into the new format and still play their old favorites. So a 2nd edition would not destroy it. To be honest there is only one thing that can destroy X-wing Miniatures, Disney. Now right at this moment as Disney is still making movies there is no danger of such action. X-wing miniatures is very good for the Star Wars brand, more so than all the junk YouTube bait that is getting thrown around in unboxing videos. X-wing not only gives Disney royalties but also promotional material for their upcoming movies.

So now is X-wing messed up to the point only 2nd ed. will save it? I think it is clear X-wing doesn't need saving at the moment. Just because the meta is not the game you want to play, solution is to go play a different game. The latest article was promoting the mission formats, and there are plenty of side formats to include a thread of it around here (I have to go look for it). However the trick is to get other players to play with that format and that is going to take some social effort on your part (hint; arguing over the forums is not good practice). But I see players trying Epic, epic with house rules, Heroes of the Aturi Cluster, and other things as well. So you don't have to play X-wing. Now will X-wing die if it gets revamped, not likely. It could do some good with 3 factions from the ground up so we get better traits interactivity and balance. Also it could open up some room for new actions like s-foils. Also with a whole new selection of maneuver dials from Wave 1 all the ships could be rebalanced into where they fit better. Still I agree, it is way too soon for such action.

X-wing is fine, wait until after Worlds before you start saying something needs to be fixed.