Repairs & Wear I believe took the longest for me of the Vehicle Ops Series to get to something I liked. The repairs section is more of an in-depth and structured explanation (in one place) of the core repair rules then something new. Additions include using Spare Parts, which is not required (in fact you could pull out the spare parts rules only when you think it's important - crash landing in a desolate place and must consider where you are getting parts for repairs). Connected to using spare parts are the salvage rules which covers junking out other devices or vehicles for use in making repairs. They could also be used if your PCs get into salvage operations (Space Junkers). For those that like added detail, Repair Resources details what equipment, hired help, and starports are available for varying sizes of vehicles. Finally there's a system for keeping track of long term wear on a vehicle which I think is fun while still keeping within the flavor of FFG's narrative system.

I have a long list of credits for this one including Nashable, Talkie Toaster, Venthrac, Desslok, RebelDave, and Bradknowles. Some unknowingly gave inspiration while others are victims of blatant theft of ideas which I altered to my liking ( Operational Costs by RebelDave especially).

Last thread for now in the series until I complete my Trade document. I'll be going back and making edits where suggested and adding the missing Consolidated Tables section to each document (already completed for Consumables, for example).

Usual Statement: I understand some may not like the added complexity, or the added detail is not needed for their campaign. But, please consider that what may seem complex at first glance (lots of pages) may just be filled with lots of examples and presentation. If you see something that could be a problem for the rules I've presented then please, please comment here. I've play-tested a bit of this, but most of it is very new and yet used. If you do use my rules, please come back for feedback! I will update things as better options or errors are presented. I consider all of these "In Testing".

Vehicle Ops: Repairs & Wear

Vehicle Ops Series

On 4/29/2017 at 2:06 PM, Sturn said:

Repairs & Wear I believe took the longest for me of the Vehicle Ops Series to get to something I liked. The repairs section is more of an in-depth and structured explanation (in one place) of the core repair rules then something new. Additions include using Spare Parts, which is not required (in fact you could pull out the spare parts rules only when you think it's important - crash landing in a desolate place and must consider where you are getting parts for repairs). Connected to using spare parts are the salvage rules which covers junking out other devices or vehicles for use in making repairs. They could also be used if your PCs get into salvage operations (Space Junkers). For those that like added detail, Repair Resources details what equipment, hired help, and starports are available for varying sizes of vehicles. Finally there's a system for keeping track of long term wear on a vehicle which I think is fun while still keeping within the flavor of FFG's narrative system.

I have a long list of credits for this one including Nashable, Talkie Toaster, Venthrac, Desslok, RebelDave, and Bradknowles. Some unknowingly gave inspiration while others are victims of blatant theft of ideas which I altered to my liking ( Operational Costs by RebelDave especially).

Last thread for now in the series until I complete my Trade document. I'll be going back and making edits where suggested and adding the missing Consolidated Tables section to each document (already completed for Consumables, for example).

Usual Statement: I understand some may not like the added complexity, or the added detail is not needed for their campaign. But, please consider that what may seem complex at first glance (lots of pages) may just be filled with lots of examples and presentation. If you see something that could be a problem for the rules I've presented then please, please comment here. I've play-tested a bit of this, but most of it is very new and yet used. If you do use my rules, please come back for feedback! I will update things as better options or errors are presented. I consider all of these "In Testing".

Vehicle Ops: Repairs & Wear

Vehicle Ops Series

Hey Sturn, Love the things you've put together. One question and critique I have for this one in particular though.

The critique first. I feel like the cost to repair a point of hull should be based on the total value of the ship rather than the size of the ship. Ships generally get more expensive as they get bigger and some times there is a major swing in the price difference between two similarly sized vehicles. Should it cost the same to repair a point of hull damage on a Nubian Cruiser as it does to repair a YT-1000 freighter? I have been going with a base of 1/2 a % of the base price.

The question is about repairing critical hits to a ship. RAW there is no cost. Just a roll. I feel that is wrong. For these I go with a base of 2% per die of the crit difficulty. If they want to do the repair without replacement parts I increase or upgrade the check appropriately. (or sometime just disallow the repair all together)

The only drawback to using the price of the vehicle is that some are more expensive based on other items. Like more weapons, a better engine, or in the case of the Baudo(sp) it's just really nice on the inside. It's like the same mechanic charging more to pop a dent out of a Mercedes than a Nissan simply because the Mercedes costs more. On the other hand, for some repairs it does make more sense if you are concerned about the aesthetics of the vehicle. Getting a new panel costs a lot more than just welding the whole closed with a permanent patch.

It may work better simply to base it on silhouette. That way larger ships do cost more to repair since each point of HT represents a bigger area by comparison. Tough call to make though. Both have their positives and negatives.

18 hours ago, Ryoden said:

Hey Sturn, Love the things you've put together. One question and critique I have for this one in particular though.

Thank you. And thanks for the critique. One of my primary reasons for sharing is input.

18 hours ago, Ryoden said:

I feel like the cost to repair a point of hull should be based on the total value of the ship rather than the size of the ship. Ships generally get more expensive as they get bigger and some times there is a major swing in the price difference between two similarly sized vehicles. Should it cost the same to repair a point of hull damage on a Nubian Cruiser as it does to repair a YT-1000 freighter? I have been going with a base of 1/2 a % of the base price.

When making these "advanced" rules I started with RAW and tried not to change anything unless it was completely wonky (in my opinion). I tried to make the rules more add-ons then changes, when possible. RAW has 500 credits per point of hull damage. That is where I started. While that implied larger ships (more HT) would cost more to repair if suffering near maximum damage, it also meant that a single HT repaired on a silhouette 4 ship would cost the same as a single HT on a star destroyer. So, I went with the simple change of HT on bigger ships cost more to repair each. So, I have the simple Table 3 when using the RAW method of paid repairs which greatly increases costs per HT as the ship gets bigger. If using the optional spare parts / salvage rules, there is a simple silhouette multiplier for the cost of the spare parts when doing self repairs (only possible on non-capital ships, cost per HT is 100 x Silhouette).

That gave me the desired result without having to stop to pull out a calculator. While I understand that the slick Nubian craft should cost more to repair then the freighter (similar to a Corvette vs. a Chevy), I preferred not to get into the slow down of looking up the cost of the ship and applying a %. With what I've got, you simply need to know the silhouette (no need to look it up usually), then either address a table (paid repairs) or multiply by 100 (self repairs) with no need of a calculator.

18 hours ago, Ryoden said:

The question is about repairing critical hits to a ship. RAW there is no cost. Just a roll. I feel that is wrong. For these I go with a base of 2% per die of the crit difficulty. If they want to do the repair without replacement parts I increase or upgrade the check appropriately. (or sometime just disallow the repair all together)

Re-reading my rules they aren't as clear as I thought regarding critical repairs.

Under self repairs (using spare parts) and paid repairs I referred to "component" repairs which do need spare parts or a credit cost, and more so for larger ships. I didn't use the term "critical" repair due to the varying results of the critical hit tables. Some results don't suggest something is broken, so they shouldn't require parts or a cost when "repairing". For example, repairing "Losing Power to Shields" may not require parts to make a repair, while "Engine Damaged" obviously could. But, I used the term "component" which is highly misleading in hindsight since it seems to apply only to component damage only, not any critical that causes obvious physical damage.

I'll change the wording in my next update. Thanks!

3 minutes ago, Sturn said:

When making these "advanced" rules I started with RAW and tried not to change anything unless it was completely wonky (in my opinion). I tried to make the rules more add-ons then changes, when possible. RAW has 500 credits per point of hull damage. That is where I started. While that implied larger ships (more HT) would cost more to repair if suffering near maximum damage, it also meant that a single HT repaired on a silhouette 4 ship would cost the same as a single HT on a star destroyer. So, I went with the simple change of HT on bigger ships cost more to repair each. So, I have the simple Table 3 when using the RAW method of paid repairs which greatly increases costs per HT as the ship gets bigger. If using the optional spare parts / salvage rules, there is a simple silhouette multiplier for the cost of the spare parts when doing self repairs (only possible on non-capital ships, cost per HT is 100 x Silhouette).

That gave me the desired result without having to stop to pull out a calculator. While I understand that the slick Nubian craft should cost more to repair then the freighter (similar to a Corvette vs. a Chevy), I preferred not to get into the slow down of looking up the cost of the ship and applying a %. With what I've got, you simply need to know the silhouette (no need to look it up usually), then either address a table (paid repairs) or multiply by 100 (self repairs) with no need of a calculator.

I also based the 0.5% on RAW. Of the three ships recommended to a starting group the costs are 80K 100K and 120K the middle price (average) being 100K credits. I suppose I looked at doing the math as being rather easy. 1% of 100k is 1k. Half of that is the same 500 that comes from RAW. And even if your ship is not a clean price easy to do the math on, to you only have to do the math one time. After you know the price per point of threshold you can just go back to it when you are repairing again. To me that's no more onerous than checking the price on a table.

11 minutes ago, Sturn said:

Re-reading my rules they aren't as clear as I thought regarding critical repairs.

Under self repairs (using spare parts) and paid repairs I referred to "component" repairs which do need spare parts or a credit cost, and more so for larger ships. I didn't use the term "critical" repair due to the varying results of the critical hit tables. Some results don't suggest something is broken, so they shouldn't require parts or a cost when "repairing". For example, repairing "Losing Power to Shields" may not require parts to make a repair, while "Engine Damaged" obviously could. But, I used the term "component" which is highly misleading in hindsight since it seems to apply only to component damage only, not any critical that causes obvious physical damage.

I'll change the wording in my next update. Thanks!

I suppose I feel that any critical would incur a cost to repair. They are all caused by the ship taking damage. Because the ship can take damage but not have a critical it means to me that any critical represents additional damage. Even the ones that have a temporary effect on gameplay are caused by damage to some part of the ship, not just the hull threshold. Bottom line is that you need to repair it before it goes away.

Did you pull in the suggested costs for paying for services from Special Modifications?

On ‎5‎/‎28‎/‎2017 at 5:35 AM, lupex said:

Did you pull in the suggested costs for paying for services from Special Modifications?

No. I don't think I had it yet when I began this one. I will revisit and make adjustments. Page?

One of the things i notice in this is "wear" seems to happen with Damage to WTT or STT. Wear can also occur IMHO as the parts get old and basic maintenance is not maintained due to lazy, or minimal crew.

22 hours ago, Sturn said:

No. I don't think I had it yet when I began this one. I will revisit and make adjustments. Page?

Pg 92 Mechanic Pay Scale

On ‎5‎/‎30‎/‎2017 at 6:29 AM, kinnison said:

One of the things i notice in this is "wear" seems to happen with Damage to WTT or STT. Wear can also occur IMHO as the parts get old and basic maintenance is not maintained due to lazy, or minimal crew.

There are a couple ways to obtain Wear. First, as you mentioned, damage exceeding WTT or STT causes a point of Wear. Thus, a vehicle never engaging in combat will never obtain Wear in this way. But, Wear is also caused by spending Threats or Despairs (possibly, referee choice as usual) when making relevant vehicle checks such as Pilot, Mechanic, Astrogation, etc. Maybe Computer and Gunnery checks also? Thus, general use can lead to Wear with check results. The more you use a vehicle, the more often it will obtain Wear.

Also, note the optional sidebar on page 14 title "Aged" which may be for you? Threats and Despairs when removing Wear can cause optional points of Age. If you choose to keep track of this quality, it will eventually (long term for larger ships, easier for smaller vehicles) impose penalties for using the vehicle that may only be removed with a complete overhaul. If this is used, the referee should impose a few points of Aged on used vehicles which were picked up cheap by the players.

On ‎5‎/‎28‎/‎2017 at 5:35 AM, lupex said:

Did you pull in the suggested costs for paying for services from Special Modifications?

It looks like I'm pretty much in sync still. I based the Paid Repairs cost on RAW's 500 credits per hull trauma. Special Modifications used this as a basis also. I further differentiated by making a difference in the cost per hull trauma by raising it for larger vehicles and lowering it for smaller vehicles.

My pay scales in another Vehicle Ops supplement ( Consumables & Expenses ) also appear to still be ok since I based it upon pay found in the previous Far Horizons book (pg. 93). It looks like the author of Special Modifications did his homework.

My practice of attempting to remain true to RAW when possible could have a side benefit of not needing as many updates when new sourcebooks are released.

I did find one discrepancy between Special Modifications and Core books. Gear repair (bottom of pg. 92) states 33% of the base cost of the item per damage level. Core has it at 25% each. I'm not sure why Special Modifications changed this (perhaps after further though, see below*). I based gear repair costs on Core for this supplement and I'm going to stick with it.

*I think what is going on is Core gives the price when a PC Mechanic repairs a weapon or other item himself. The cost is the price of materials needed. Special Modification's table gives various wages earned for PC mechanics. What they can charge. So the profit margin is the difference between the 25% parts cost and the 33% after labor is applied? If that is correct I may go update my paid repairs for gear to the 33% to remain in sync?

19 hours ago, Sturn said:

It looks like I'm pretty much in sync still. I based the Paid Repairs cost on RAW's 500 credits per hull trauma. Special Modifications used this as a basis also. I further differentiated by making a difference in the cost per hull trauma by raising it for larger vehicles and lowering it for smaller vehicles.

My pay scales in another Vehicle Ops supplement ( Consumables & Expenses ) also appear to still be ok since I based it upon pay found in the previous Far Horizons book (pg. 93). It looks like the author of Special Modifications did his homework.

My practice of attempting to remain true to RAW when possible could have a side benefit of not needing as many updates when new sourcebooks are released.

I did find one discrepancy between Special Modifications and Core books. Gear repair (bottom of pg. 92) states 33% of the base cost of the item per damage level. Core has it at 25% each. I'm not sure why Special Modifications changed this (perhaps after further though, see below*). I based gear repair costs on Core for this supplement and I'm going to stick with it.

*I think what is going on is Core gives the price when a PC Mechanic repairs a weapon or other item himself. The cost is the price of materials needed. Special Modification's table gives various wages earned for PC mechanics. What they can charge. So the profit margin is the difference between the 25% parts cost and the 33% after labor is applied? If that is correct I may go update my paid repairs for gear to the 33% to remain in sync?

Sounds like a good rationale mate

Did you ever do the tweaks to costs for repairs mate?