Or you can play like me @ouzel, stay at speed 1 and play with them

A few further comments while I have a moment:

Re: Nav Teams: I am especially interested in this upgrade, especially in non-Madine lists. You do get an awful lot out of speed-3, and being able to turn very sharply can really change how many shots the Liberty can take per game. I'd lean more toward the BC with Spinal or QTC and Leading shots for maximizing red dice shots on approach and then turning to create more blue shots over the course of the game.

Re: MC30+Liberty in the same list: I played around with Corvettes versus the MC30, and found that the MC30 played much better in the list. To answer this question more fully, I need to explain how the local meta influenced my decision process. I'd describe Ard and Brikhause and their fleets as the two poles representing the meta. Ard loves MC30s and you can almost always expect to see one on the table. His list is well posted throughout the forums. Brikhause runs the famous Rieekan's Aceholes and is the Worlds runner-up. In short, it is an environment with some very good competition. In late October after trying a few things and just being in the mood for something different, I turned to Madine and the Liberty. The basic idea with speed was to borrow some of the concepts of Ginkapo's Ackbar Star Destroyers, which included being able to use speed-4 to effect an escape against carrier builds, all while destroying the carriers. I really didn't think squadronless was feasible in the post wave-4 world, so I worked primarily with A-wings. On the other hand, the whole goal was to limit the total number of points that went into the squadron game and squadron defense. So a second concept was minimizing what Q has referred to as the "game-within-the-game" of squadrons. Could I tie up, annoy, and pick up a few points without investing too much into that dimension of the game? This is a critically important concept when looking at the use of Gallant Haven in Brikhause's list, which specifically denies points in the squadron game, wins that portion of the game, and then overwhelms any ships that are left.

In the end, I may not have won a regional, but given the strength of the meta, I'm not sure one has to in order to prove that a list archetype is viable and competitive. I certainly won plenty of individual store tournaments. As much as we like to use the terms "this list is strong against/weak against," so much of the end result depends upon the abilities of the players. I've certainly won games against lists that out-activated me. I've also won games against lists that were strong in squadrons. All of this to the point that I don't think it is right to speak of being able to present a good match-up to one, but not both. I've also certainly lost some key games, and it is important to look at what happened with the list and game, and why it went wrong. Sometimes, I've had to look at doing more with the list. Often, I've found adjustments that I've needed to make in my own play.

Now, I'd certainly agree that high activation list and squadron lists are going to present specific types of problems. I'm not sure those problems are necessarily worse than they present to all of the other lists out there. In the end, you need to know your list extremely well and then play your absolute heart out of it.

2 minutes ago, Vergilius said:

Snips good thoughts

Now, I'd certainly agree that high activation list and squadron lists are going to present specific types of problems. I'm not sure those problems are necessarily worse than they present to all of the other lists out there. In the end, you need to know your list extremely well and then play your absolute heart out of it.

Would you allow that against some high activation MSU lists the Liberty is actually superior to the Imperial in those matchups? Every time I try the MSU side of the ball, ET Liberty's take full advantage of their greater support than equivalent ISDs to offset some of the advantage, and then use the speed to burst through enemy lines, take a couple kills, and run away much more effectively than an Imperial could hope to try. Beating Imperials with MSU has just been easier, since they're much more predictable in maneuver, but is that always the case, or just a lack of familiarity?

The speed & firepower of the Liberty, under Madine, lends itself to a double Liberty list that come from opposite sides of the deployment zone & cross in the middle.

Doesn't that tend to risk one of them being isolated and concentrated on?

2 hours ago, shmitty said:

Cracked doesn't work on Large base ships...

Garm really does well with the Liberty. It loves the tokens and makes good use of them with Nav Teams, etc.

Commander's I've never actually put on the table: Cracken.

Je suis idiot.

20 minutes ago, GiledPallaeon said:

Would you allow that against some high activation MSU lists the Liberty is actually superior to the Imperial in those matchups? Every time I try the MSU side of the ball, ET Liberty's take full advantage of their greater support than equivalent ISDs to offset some of the advantage, and then use the speed to burst through enemy lines, take a couple kills, and run away much more effectively than an Imperial could hope to try. Beating Imperials with MSU has just been easier, since they're much more predictable in maneuver, but is that always the case, or just a lack of familiarity?

I play Rebels 80% of the time and pretty much exclusively competitively, so that leaves me with the difficulty of not really having competitive play experience on the Imperial side of that equation. On the other hand, I've been slicing and dicing up Imperial Star Destroyers since Wave-2. The Liberty definitely has an enormous amount of flexibility that the IMperial doesn't have in repositioning, getting good shots, and avoiding a disturbing amount of incoming fire.

48 minutes ago, Alexhurlbut said:

Doesn't that tend to risk one of them being isolated and concentrated on?

No, they are fast enough that they can cut hard across your side of the play area if they try, & Madine allows them to pull a full 180 in 2 turns. Yavaris or Flotillas with squadrons, slow roll up the middle.

Yavaris Shenanigans + LSD II
Author: Cynanbloodbane

Faction: Rebel Alliance
Points: 396/400

Commander: General Madine

Assault Objective: Opening Salvo
Defense Objective: Contested Outpost
Navigation Objective: Superior Positions

[ flagship ] MC80 Star Cruiser (96 points)
- General Madine ( 30 points)
- Intel Officer ( 7 points)
- Gunnery Team ( 7 points)
- Engine Techs ( 8 points)
- X17 Turbolasers ( 6 points)
= 154 total ship cost

MC80 Star Cruiser (96 points)
- Intel Officer ( 7 points)
- Gunnery Team ( 7 points)
- Engine Techs ( 8 points)
- X17 Turbolasers ( 6 points)
= 124 total ship cost

Nebulon-B Escort Frigate (57 points)
- Yavaris ( 5 points)
- Flight Commander ( 3 points)
- Fighter Coordination Team ( 3 points)
= 68 total ship cost

2 B-Wing Squadrons ( 28 points)
2 A-Wing Squadrons ( 22 points)

11 hours ago, Lyraeus said:

Whew, it's been a while since I did one of these.

Talking to @shmitty last night the Liberty came up and I came to wonder what the issue was with its ability to win tournaments.

What happened with the Liberty? I actually enjoy the ship (though to be fair I like ships with weird movements).

How do you use the ship?

I treat it like an oversized Nebulon (my second favorite ship) but with the speed and movement to be a proper Hammer. The Nebulon is a better Anvil to me. Needs to be and with Salvation and Yavaris you have some of the best anvils in the industry

And if I could successfully fly a neb, this would be helpful lol

54 minutes ago, Audio Weasel said:

And if I could successfully fly a neb, this would be helpful lol

There is a trick. Go slow.

On ‎4‎/‎29‎/‎2017 at 9:50 PM, Undeadguy said:

The issues I find is it dies against APT builds. It's very easy to double arc the front hull. H9 MC30s tear this ship apart since the Liberty has no way to take ECM to protect the Redirect. Sure, it's 5 shields, but after Admo has had it's pass, you likely have 2 face ups and no shields left to deal with the rest of the fleet.

what about DCO+Endeavour build?

On ‎4‎/‎29‎/‎2017 at 9:17 PM, MattShadowlord said:

Unfortunately, yes.

One of the game's widest side arcs, with a single shield and no way to divert damage from it. I love and hate the ship in equal measures

If it wasn't for its titles I don't think it would see the light of day. It shows up often in the form of Yavaris, but it certainly seems like people are buying the title and not the ship.

Back on the real topic, does the Liberty really perform so badly? I've seen it put to good use, usually using the full christmas tree of upgrades in high activation fleets.

Nebs rank lower in most people's eyes for similar reasons to VSD. If you played Company of Heroes(WW2), Nebs are like anti-tank guns, strong at range but narrow cone of fire, hence easy to flank. VSDs are like Stugs, tough but hard to turn, hence easy to flank. Both these pieces are support, so either they cannot be the centre of attention(come in later as support/finisher) or you need something to cover their flanks.

1 hour ago, Muelmuel said:

what about DCO+Endeavour build?

That's 9 points and officer slot. I don't like it.

And as usual no one says "Major Derlin".

1 hour ago, BiggsIRL said:

And as usual no one says "Major Derlin".

Hmmmm? I like Intel Officer but Derlin could work if I see just too much damage being take

10 hours ago, Undeadguy said:

That's 9 points and officer slot. I don't like it.

I've tried it, but that's just too many points spent.

My go to guy is Lando. 4 pts and it's rare you'll have a game where he doesn't save you at least 2 hull damage, often more.

A little anecdote on the Liberty from today in response to a mention of Nav Teams here.

This time Dodonna, rather than Liberty easy-mode with Madine, Raymus and Engine Techs, ... I tried one with Nav Teams, Veteran Captain and no Engine Techs with the idea that you might only need that tighter turn a couple of times.

needs more testing, but not bad. I think Engine Techs were missed more that Raymus and Madine.

I would not strip it down navigationally much more than that though. One their own they are speed 3 bricks.

Re: DCO + Endeavor: I'd like to counter the "it costs 9 points" comment with an observation the puts together two comments I've seen in very different places. In a discussion with Ardaedhel in person (and also on the forums in 2 or 3 places), he mentioned looking at his commander as a pool of points spent for some particular purpose or effect. Now, let's add that comment together with a very different comment I've seen just in the past few days in the Fleet Building forum, where Ginkapo built a three activation list and noted that you either follow the activation race down the whole or you simply accept it and build to limit it. A lot of the APT builds that you're trying to stop with DCO+Endeavor are running a ton of activations and often a bid to achieve the effect of getting that one key shot from Admonition or Demolisher off. You also have any unspent points on the bid that are helping to generate that effect. So there's a certain pool of points in those kinds of lists that depend entirely upon the activation sequence of setting up that shot. Listbuilding is partly about solving problems. How do I solve the problem of APTs? How do I solve the problem of high quality activations? How do I solve the problem of high activations, squadrons, objectives, first player, second player? Sure, it may be a title and officer that you cannot use for other purposes, but it at least ought to be theoretically possible to build a list that builds around those for the purpose of stopping not just APTs but other critical effects as well. I'm not sure I want to try to wrap my mind around that problem any time soon, but theoretically it ought to work.

Major Derlin: I played a tournament with Major Derlin on my Liberty, plus about 2-3 weeks worth of casual play nights. He's good, but I just didn't feel like he fit with how I was trying to fly my Madine list, where NAV was by far the most important element of whether the Liberty got away. He's definitely worth a look again.

13 hours ago, BiggsIRL said:

And as usual no one says "Major Derlin".

Saving 1 damage per round isn't cost efficient when it's on your largest ship which should be taking a majority of the shots, assuming your opponent focus fires. I'd rather have Raymus for the extra attack or movement.

7 hours ago, Vergilius said:

Snip.

Armada has a tendency to be offensive focused. The defensive upgrades tend to be less effective than offensive, with the exception of ECM. But even then, you can take the ion cannon that exhausts a card, which is anecdotal more than anything. Point is, for any defensive upgrade, there is an offensive one that negates it out right. AP vs XI7 sealed the fate of defensive builds.

That said, defensive upgrades can be quite good but cannot be thrown onto any ship. The Lib is strictly built for offensive fire power. 2 turbolasers and an ion cannon show that. I'd rather arm it to the teeth and have it go down blasting everything in sight than try to sink points in it to keep it alive.

If I'm worried about APT builds wrecking me, I'm better off taking a different ship.

On 4/29/2017 at 2:21 PM, Ardaedhel said:

They did, and I disagreed with them then. D+O was a different time for the squadron game.

By all means, try it. I'm all about trying new things and challenging perceptions. I just took an Interdictor to a tournament. I just wouldn't expect to get too far on this without a nod to squadron defense.

It was an MC30 with interdictor painted on the side, wasn't it....