Whew, it's been a while since I did one of these.

Talking to @shmitty last night the Liberty came up and I came to wonder what the issue was with its ability to win tournaments.

What happened with the Liberty? I actually enjoy the ship (though to be fair I like ships with weird movements).

How do you use the ship?

I treat it like an oversized Nebulon (my second favorite ship) but with the speed and movement to be a proper Hammer. The Nebulon is a better Anvil to me. Needs to be and with Salvation and Yavaris you have some of the best anvils in the industry

My issue was user error.

Maybe it will take someone winning with a niche build to inspire others, Clonisher style. Maybe we just need someone to show us the way.

7 minutes ago, ManInTheBox said:

My issue was user error.

Maybe it will take someone winning with a niche build to inspire others, Clonisher style. Maybe we just need someone to show us the way.

Maybe. I am taking it as a challenge to overcome. I will see where my limits take me.

Liberty is not a good ship at all.

Just now, Aresius said:

Liberty is not a good ship at all.

Why?

She suffer too much against squadron build. Only one redirect is not good.

1 minute ago, Aresius said:

She suffer too much against squadron build. Only one redirect is not good.

So, does that mean you should have a Cap or some capacity to delay squadrons?

Is the Nebulon a bad ship then?

Plus Walex on board to double redirect utility?

11 minutes ago, Lyraeus said:

Is the Nebulon a bad ship then?

Unfortunately, yes.

One of the game's widest side arcs, with a single shield and no way to divert damage from it. I love and hate the ship in equal measures

If it wasn't for its titles I don't think it would see the light of day. It shows up often in the form of Yavaris, but it certainly seems like people are buying the title and not the ship.

Back on the real topic, does the Liberty really perform so badly? I've seen it put to good use, usually using the full christmas tree of upgrades in high activation fleets.

The Liberty has done fine. I played a Madine Liberty to a 3rd, 4th, and 5th during the regional season. I've certainly won several casual tournaments with one. Someone borrowed my list with slight modifications and won the London regional.

Our discussion back during the regional data evaluation here on the forums tended to go in the direction of it being a hard ship to build and fly. The results featured a lot of top-4 and a lot of bottom 1/4 with almost no ground in-between.

3 minutes ago, MattShadowlord said:

Unfortunately, yes.

One of the game's widest side arcs, with a single shield and no way to divert damage from it. I love and hate the ship in equal measures

If it wasn't for its titles I don't think it would see the light of day. It shows up often in the form of Yavaris, but it certainly seems like people are buying the title and not the ship.

Back on the real topic, does the Liberty really perform so badly? I've seen it put to good use, usually using the full christmas tree of upgrades in high activation fleets.

I disagree. It is a great ship that you have to learn to fly. It has worked tournaments with and without titles.

@shmitty stated last night that it is widely taken but not many users have actually won tournaments with it.

Someone summon @Vergilius...

I've been using it lately in a Madine build, and it can get work done.... but I had trouble in my last tournament when i tried to run it up against ISDs. Don't do that. I think there was something Ben said in one of the several threads he's written it up as, where it's a Battle Cruiser. Which means it smashes smalls and can run from Large bases. It paired well with an Admonition APT build... until I ran up against a Damage Control Officer ISD and lists with several Arquittens in them that i (incorrectly, may i point out) didn't target because I was going for the ISD.

It's not an easy ship to pilot, but it CAN get work done if you're careful with it. Also, Engineering more than you should with it slash more than I did with it, because Raymus on it can remove 2 damage a turn, which helps with your garbage shielded side arcs. I like it, but i'm fearful of the list i ran when Wave 6 drops (just Tycho and Shara as my squadrons) as i don't think they're going to be enough against Sloan, IMO.

Also, i'm working on the article for it, which should hopefully be up Monday....

....weirdly, i like the Liberty title in a few specific circumstances

I mean, every ship suffers against a squadron build. Defense tokens are just not efficient against many small attacks. If you choose the right squadrons, there is no ship that's going to be a point-for-point more efficient damage deliverer. It's pretty common wisdom that SHIPS > INTERCEPTORS > BOMBERS > SHIPS.

I guess what I'm saying is that Liberty's woes are probably (a) overstated -- you could make it work, like Truthiness does, and (b) are not due to its victimization by squadrons.

So far a good discussion. Yes against squadrons this can suffer but is that due to user issues or actual ship issues? Look at the ISD, a strong hull ship but bad sharp arcs. It seems to be a balance issue.

The Liberty feels the same actually.

I have now created a Dodonna the Oppressor variant with the Liberty. This is thanks to @geek19 's thought. It is called D+O Liberty or Death

The issue of the Liberty in my opinion is the player. Players consider the Liberty as an ISD which is a big mistake. The Liberty can't jump into the middle of the brawl like an ISD because it can't take the same pounding. With the ISD the strategy is being the main threat on the board and control the battlefield by either taking most of the enemy fire or forcing your opponent to run away from it. For the opponent the Liberty usually is just like that: The main threat but unlike the ISD it can be destroyed or at least crippled by a lucky salvo so the enemy won't run form it, even if it's Mon Karren.

The issues I find is it dies against APT builds. It's very easy to double arc the front hull. H9 MC30s tear this ship apart since the Liberty has no way to take ECM to protect the Redirect. Sure, it's 5 shields, but after Admo has had it's pass, you likely have 2 face ups and no shields left to deal with the rest of the fleet.

I find the best way to use it is fully loaded. Raymus+ET+GT+LS+turbolasers of your choice. I used to run it with Yavaris and some Flotillas and had some success but it was inconsistent. I built a list this week:

2 minutes ago, Norell said:

The issue of the Liberty in my opinion is the player. Players consider the Liberty as an ISD which is a big mistake. The Liberty can't jump into the middle of the brawl like an ISD because it can't take the same pounding. With the ISD the strategy is being the main threat on the board and control the battlefield by either taking most of the enemy fire or forcing your opponent to run away from it. For the opponent the Liberty usually is just like that: The main threat but unlike the ISD it can be destroyed or at least crippled by a lucky salvo so the enemy won't run form it, even if it's Mon Karren.

That is how I see it as well. It is an Anvil not the Hammer

29 minutes ago, geek19 said:

Someone summon @Vergilius...

I've been using it lately in a Madine build, and it can get work done.... but I had trouble in my last tournament when i tried to run it up against ISDs. Don't do that. I think there was something Ben said in one of the several threads he's written it up as, where it's a Battle Cruiser. Which means it smashes smalls and can run from Large bases. It paired well with an Admonition APT build... until I ran up against a Damage Control Officer ISD and lists with several Arquittens in them that i (incorrectly, may i point out) didn't target because I was going for the ISD.

It's not an easy ship to pilot, but it CAN get work done if you're careful with it. Also, Engineering more than you should with it slash more than I did with it, because Raymus on it can remove 2 damage a turn, which helps with your garbage shielded side arcs. I like it, but i'm fearful of the list i ran when Wave 6 drops (just Tycho and Shara as my squadrons) as i don't think they're going to be enough against Sloan, IMO.

When Ben @Vergilius gets summoned...he appears 5 minutes in the past.

Holy crap.

I like your fleet Lyr exactly because it distributes the threat in your fleet. Let the enemy worry about Admonition and the Liberty can linger back, fire only reds in turn 2 and maybe even 3 and only join the fray in turn 3 or 4.

5 minutes ago, Norell said:

I like your fleet Lyr exactly because it distributes the threat in your fleet. Let the enemy worry about Admonition and the Liberty can linger back, fire only reds in turn 2 and maybe even 3 and only join the fray in turn 3 or 4.

Yup. All the while threatening to strip tokens with the Intel Officers. Consistent attacks with devastating buildup will drop any ship in a few turns.

30 minutes ago, CaribbeanNinja said:

When Ben @Vergilius gets summoned...he appears 5 minutes in the past.

Holy crap.

Classic Ben

1 hour ago, ManInTheBox said:

My issue was user error.

Maybe it will take someone winning with a niche build to inspire others, Clonisher style. Maybe we just need someone to show us the way.

Same with myself - it's an amazing ship that can do what other large ships cant, an effective speed four with engine techs, not to mention dual turbo slots. It does suffer to bombers and APTs a lot (combined with user error this kills it very quick), but building a fleet to support/ mitigate is key. ManInTheBox mentioned Walex to help with the redirect, a great idea to bump up the defences a bit. Raymus can also help with engineering (and makes engine tech-ing easier).

Its totally not a big Neb. Nebs a flimsy on the attack and defence. The Lib eats everything except ISDs and MC80 christmas trees for breakfast, and even with those two having some engine techs/ Madine action means you'll be behind them/ out of arc before they can turn.

It's tough to use, but up there with the MC30 as one of the Reb's best. Really dont get the hate it receives.

The liberty always reminds me of a slightly suped up victory class, without the ability to be a great carrier, and feeling more fragile.

I'm out almost the whole day. I do have two AAR threads on the regionals. And about every time a liberty thread has popped up, I end up with a long post in it. Those are great starting points.

re: apt builds: I found bid is pretty important, and if you're not bidding, you need the activations.

re: isd: the mc30 admonition is the heavy lifter. A double arc usually takes care of all the shields. The liberty has to follow or it gets trapped. Keep in mind that sometime it is just easier to kill the rest of the ships and exit with an 8-3. One of my biggest weaknesses is going for the 10 and ending up losing instead. So don't try to do more than your list can handle.