Finally I have a TV+DVD player in home after 5 years of abstinence. No better way to get back into it than watching Rogue One, IV, V, and VI in a row.

Since I just learned that we have the actual composition of the force that assaulted the DS, here it is:

DEATH STAR ASSAULT

820 points

PILOTS

“Dutch” Vander (30)
Y-Wing (23), BTL-A4 Y-Wing (0), R2 Astromech (1), Proton Torpedoes (4), Extra Munitions (2)

Gold Squadron Pilot (25) x 7
Y-Wing (18), BTL-A4 Y-Wing (0), R2 Astromech (1), Extra Munitions (2), Proton Torpedoes (4)

Wedge Antilles (34)
X-Wing (29), R2 Astromech (1), Proton Torpedoes (4)

Luke Skywalker (36)
X-Wing (28), R2-D2 (4), Proton Torpedoes (4)

Jek Porkins (31)
X-Wing (26), R2 Astromech (1), Proton Torpedoes (4)

Biggs Darklighter (30)
X-Wing (25), R2 Astromech (1), Proton Torpedoes (4)

Red Squadron Pilot (28) x 8
X-Wing (23), R2 Astromech (1), Proton Torpedoes (4)

Rookie Pilot (26) x 10
X-Wing (21), R2 Astromech (1), Proton Torpedoes (4)

We need a LOT of named pilots, yet, OTOH. . .

Missing red leader Garven dreis (and his droid is r5-k6, and porkins's droid is r5-d8)

edit: and Luke needs deadeye and intergrated Astro if you want full fluff

And for the defenders:

DEATH STAR DEFENDERS

820 points

PILOTS

Darth Vader (30)
TIE Advanced (29), TIE/x1 (0), Advanced Targeting Computer (1)

“Mauler Mithel” (17)

“Dark Curse” (16)

“Backstabber” (16)

“Wampa” (14)

Black Squadron Pilot (15) x 3
TIE Fighter (14), Draw Their Fire (1)

Black Squadron Pilot (14) x 5

Academy Pilot (12) x 51

I guess I need to tell the wife I need a few more TIE fighters. . .

Have you tried Dagobah Dave's revamped Trench Run mission? I haven't yet, but I really like the changes.

There were only like eight TIE Fighters at Yavin 4.

I guess Dallas Parker was playing.

27 minutes ago, heychadwick said:

Have you tried Dagobah Dave's revamped Trench Run mission? I haven't yet, but I really like the changes.

No. My group almost did, but never actually got to it. I'll have to look at the revised version. . .

37 minutes ago, heychadwick said:

Have you tried Dagobah Dave's revamped Trench Run mission? I haven't yet, but I really like the changes.

Do you have a link to the updated version

1 hour ago, Darth Meanie said:

And for the defenders:

DEATH STAR DEFENDERS

820 points

PILOTS

Darth Vader (30)
TIE Advanced (29), TIE/x1 (0), Advanced Targeting Computer (1)

“Mauler Mithel” (17)

“Dark Curse” (16)

“Backstabber” (16)

“Wampa” (14)

Black Squadron Pilot (15) x 3
TIE Fighter (14), Draw Their Fire (1)

Black Squadron Pilot (14) x 5

Academy Pilot (12) x 51

I guess I need to tell the wife I need a few more TIE fighters. . .

There were far fewer TIEs scrambled against the Rebel craft. Just factor in the fact that the Rebels have a difficult objective with a time limit (hit the exhaust port) and that the play area is covered in turbolaser batteries, and you can justify a lot fewer TIEs.

Also, Wampa was not at the Death Star, but likely fought in the battle of Endor. He was a wingman for Vader's shuttle and was stationed aboard the Executor as Black 11.

Also, depending on your sources (since most of the pilots at Yavin are Legends now anyways), there were two A-Wings at Yavin, and one was Jake Farrel.


The call-sign project is pretty much a mess now, since Disney doubled-up on a bunch of already used call signs. Like, Gemmer Sojan had always been Green 2 at Endor, but now it was Lt. L'ulo. Similarly Green 4 had always been Jake Farrel (who we know is still cannon since we see him in RotJ), but now Green 4 was Sharra Bey's callsign at Endor.

Here was, pre-Disney, the full line-up of known Rebel fighters at Yavin IV's battle against the Death Star:

RED SQUADRON (12 X-Wings)

Red Leader ( Garven Dreis )

Red Two ( Wedge Antilles )

Red Three ( Biggs Darklighter )

Red Four ( John Branon )

Red Five ( Luke Skywalker )

Red Six ( Jek Porkins )

Red Seven ( Elyhek Rue )

Red Eight ( Bren Quersey )

Red Nine ( Nozzo Naytaan )

Red Ten ( Theron Nett )

Red Eleven ( Wenton Chan )

Red Twelve ( Puck Naeco )

GOLD SQUADRON (7 Y-Wings)

Gold Leader ( Dutch Vander )

Gold Two ( Dex Tiree )

Gold Three ( Ryle Torsyn )

Gold Four ( Lt. Lepira )

Gold Five ( Davish “Pops” Krail )

Gold Six ( Hol Okand )

Gold Seven ( Keyan Farlander )

BLUE SQUADON (6 X-Wings)

Blue Leader ( Merrick Simms )

Blue Two ( Ru Murleen )

Blue Three ( Rookie One )

Blue Four ( Thurlow Harris )

Green Squadron (1 Y-Wing, possibly also: 2 X-Wings, 2 R-22 A-Wings)

Green ??? (Jake Farrel, A-Wing)



Sprinkle in some extra fighters until you get the taken-to-be canonical 30, given that's what an Imperial officer reports about the Rebel attack force. Rogue One actually makes the EU established presence of Blue and Green squadrons more plausible, since you'd assume the few survivors of Blue Squadron (who didn't make it down to Scarif or who made it back up once the gate was destroyed) would still be around to help at Yavin. However, we know most of the members of Blue Squadron from Rogue One 's visual dictionary, and Marrick Simms and Ru Murleen and the rest aren't present in those listed. The visual dictionary to Rogue One also establishes that Green Squadron was another X-Wing squadron present with the Rebel base, and Rebels has established that R22 Spearhead A-Wings were a part of the Rebellion by the time of Yavin. Some reports place Farlander in an X-Wing during the battle (as part of Blue/Green's efforts, but other sources have him as the lone Gold Squadron survivor, Gold 7). Personally, I just have always preferred the latter, since Decipher's CCG tends to have spawned a lot of now-official canon.

We also know from the scene of Rebel fighters approaching the Death Star in the special edition (before wings report in) that there are eight Y-Wings and twenty-two X-Wings, which doesn't leave room for the alleged pair of A-Wings that were present. But, it's possible that they arrived late or from a different vector (since technically they were not part of any of the four color squadrons at the battle) and that when the officer reports "thirty" Rebel ships it's a close estimate (or reported before the A-Wings arrive).

Either way, all subject to mucking up by Disney. Their comics have already messed up call signs from Endor. We see both Jake Farrell and Gemmer Sojan in the films, so they are canonical in that sense, but their call signs from Endor (Green 2 and Green 4) have been assigned now to Lt. L'ulo and Shara Bey, respectively. Which was pointless and needless, since there were at least nine other unusued Green callsigns (anything except Green 1, Green 2, and Green 4 in fact were open) they could have given to the new characters.

I find it hard to believe there were only 8 (or other equally small number) of TIEs. True, we only see a few on screen at once, but we also only see a few Y-Wings and X-Wings, and never anywhere near the 30 claimed by the Death Star officer. I find it reasonable (granted, I haven't read anything related to the battle that might be a secondary canon source, or even legends) to assume that the Death Star launched at least as many TIEs as there were Rebels.

8 minutes ago, Kharnvor said:

I find it hard to believe there were only 8 (or other equally small number) of TIEs. True, we only see a few on screen at once, but we also only see a few Y-Wings and X-Wings, and never anywhere near the 30 claimed by the Death Star officer. I find it reasonable (granted, I haven't read anything related to the battle that might be a secondary canon source, or even legends) to assume that the Death Star launched at least as many TIEs as there were Rebels.

Well, false. This image literally shows 22 X-Wings and 8 Y-Wings (to see the full wide-screen shot, Google it, as it's too big to attach here in full):




As I noted above, you have two routes to interpret this:

Red Squad = 22 X-Wings
Gold Squad = 8 Y-Wings

Red Squad = 12 X-Wings
Gold Squad = 7 Y-Wings
Blue/Green Squads = 1 Y-Wing, 10 X-Wings

I like to think that Rogue One actually makes the second more plausible, since we know those random survivors of Blue and Green Squadrons from Scarif would likely help out in the battle, and not all of them may have been folded into Red Squadron or Gold Squadron to fill gaps.

In the Legends stuff, Blue and Green Squadron were small non-full strength units dispatched to destroy the ComSat array tower on the Death Star to disrupt the Death Star's effort to send a message for reinforcements and to disrupt their effort to respond to the upcoming trench-attack of Red and Gold Squad (who were still getting briefed and prepped for their attack, once the plans could be analyzed and Erso's weakness discovered). Which explains why they were a much smaller group and not present during the trench assault.

22 minutes ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

There were far fewer TIEs scrambled against the Rebel craft. Just factor in the fact that the Rebels have a difficult objective with a time limit (hit the exhaust port) and that the play area is covered in turbolaser batteries, and you can justify a lot fewer TIEs.

Also, Wampa was not at the Death Star, but likely fought in the battle of Endor. He was a wingman for Vader's shuttle and was stationed aboard the Executor as Black 11.

Also, depending on your sources (since most of the pilots at Yavin are Legends now anyways), there were two A-Wings at Yavin, and one was Jake Farrel.


The call-sign project is pretty much a mess now, since Disney doubled-up on a bunch of already used call signs. Like, Gemmer Sojan had always been Green 2 at Endor, but now it was Lt. L'ulo. Similarly Green 4 had always been Jake Farrel (who we know is still cannon since we see him in RotJ), but now Green 4 was Sharra Bey's callsign at Endor.

Yeah, all this. One Wookieepedia page is says there were 32 Rebel starfighters.

So, then, what is the point cost of a turbolaser emplacement, so I can have even points?

8 minutes ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

Sprinkle in some extra fighters until you get the taken-to-be canonical 30 , given that's what an Imperial officer reports about the Rebel attack force. Rogue One actually makes the presence of Blue and Green squadrons more plausible, since you'd assume the few survivors of Blue Squadron (who didn't make it down to Scarif or he made it back up once the gate was destroyed) would still be around to help at Yavin. The visual dictionary to Rogue One also establishes that Green Squadron was another primarily X-Wing squadron present, and Rebels has established that R22 Spearhead A-Wings were a part of the Rebellion by the time of Yavin. Some reports place Farlander in an X-Wing during the battle (as part of Blue/Green's efforts, but other sources have him as the lone Gold Squadron survivor, Gold 7).

Either way, all subject to mucking up by Disney. Their comics have already messed up call signs from Endor. We see both Jake Farrell and Gemmer Sojan in the films, so they are canonical in that sense, but their call signs from Endor (Green 2 and Green 4) have been assigned now to Lt. L'ulo and Shara Bey, respectively. Which was pointless and needless, since there were at least nine other unusued Green callsigns (anything except Green 1, Green 2, and Green 4 in fact were open) they could have given to the new characters.

"We count 30 starfighters" is a line of dialog in the movie, so it's pretty dang canonical.

I would assume Blue and Green were slaughtered at Scarif, and in a way that might make sense. . .why would you ONLY send 30 starfighters on a major offensive unless you only had 30 starfighters left .

57 minutes ago, teeg123456 said:

Do you have a link to the updated version

http://www.outworld-studio.com/pdf/Dagobah-Daves-Death-Star-Trench-Run-v3.pdf (I think)

Just now, Darth Meanie said:

http://www.outworld-studio.com/pdf/Dagobah-Daves-Death-Star-Trench-Run-v3.pdf (I think)

Thanks!

16 minutes ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

Red Squad = 12 X-Wings
Gold Squad = 7 Y-Wings
Blue/Green Squads = 1 Y-Wing, 10 X-Wings

I like to think that Rogue One actually makes the second more plausible, since we know those random survivors of Blue and Green Squadrons from Scarif would likely help out in the battle, and not all of them may have been folded into Red Squadron or Gold Squadron to fill gaps.

All the more reason to want Blue Squadron Veteran. . .

1 hour ago, Darth Meanie said:

And for the defenders:

DEATH STAR DEFENDERS

820 points

PILOTS

Darth Vader (30)
TIE Advanced (29), TIE/x1 (0), Advanced Targeting Computer (1)

“Mauler Mithel” (17)

“Dark Curse” (16)

“Backstabber” (16)

“Wampa” (14)

Black Squadron Pilot (15) x 3
TIE Fighter (14), Draw Their Fire (1)

Black Squadron Pilot (14) x 5

Academy Pilot (12) x 51

I guess I need to tell the wife I need a few more TIE fighters. . .

Trade out some of the TIE's for turrets.

Just now, Darth Meanie said:

All the more reason to want Blue Squadron Veteran. . .

It'll be interesting to see if Rebels flushes anymore of this out. I suspect we'll learn a bit more backstory about the background during the Battle of Scarif, and we may see even some background added to the Battle of Yavin (e.g. perhaps Hera and Ezra will do something in A-Wings to assist the Battle of Yavin, perhaps even arriving after the Imperial officer gives his count of thirty ships, which would actually make the EU/Legends report of two A-Wings being present to be canon). Is it likely they'll do this? No.

But I will say, before Rogue One and Rebels I always hated the idea of Blue Squadron, Green Squadron, and a pair of A-Wings being at Yavin to be implausible. Now, if nothing else, it feels very plausible.

16 minutes ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

Well, false. This image literally shows 22 X-Wings and 8 Y-Wings (to see the full wide-screen shot, Google it, as it's too big to attach here in full):




As I noted above, you have two routes to interpret this:

Red Squad = 22 X-Wings
Gold Squad = 8 Y-Wings

Red Squad = 12 X-Wings
Gold Squad = 7 Y-Wings
Blue/Green Squads = 1 Y-Wing, 10 X-Wings

I like to think that Rogue One actually makes the second more plausible, since we know those random survivors of Blue and Green Squadrons from Scarif would likely help out in the battle, and not all of them may have been folded into Red Squadron or Gold Squadron to fill gaps.

Ok, first: Special Edition. Every astromech is R2-D2, the X-wings are all either Red 2 or Red 5, and the Y-Wings are all the same ship. Still, point taken we see 30 ships on the way. After that, though, we don't see the rest of them outside a handful. All we see of Gold squadron is Tiree, Dutch, and Pops until the end when one is seen flying away.

I think it's safe to say Red squadron is 12, because that's who responds to "All wings report in."

My point was that we don't have a similar establishing shot of all the TIEs launched by the Death Star. I think we see one shot of 4 or 5, and from that point on it's single TIEs outside of Vader's group. We can't just assume that the only TIEs out there are the ones we see, else how did the rest of the Rebel ships get shot down? Did they all plow into the Death Star on their own, or let turbo lasers blow them up like Porkins?

Anyway, as you guys have all said, we now have Blue and Green squadrons that can conceivably be there thanks to Rogue One. Maybe the Death Star picked up some TIEs from Scarif since their base, the shield gate, was destroyed, and they had plenty to launch against the Rebels at Yavin.

Regardless, it'd be awesome to see 30 Rebel ships and a similar number of TIEs on the table all at once. Truly Epic.

Well, a couple of clarifications:

We see a few more Y-Wings. In one scene where Luke is strafing the Death Star we see a group of three flying in the background, though these are presumably not Dutch's group on their run.

We only here up through Red 11 report in, but most people assume you'd have an even number of fighters (in ideal conditions), so Red 12 (Puck Naeco) was created by Decipher. Of course, we also don't hear Red 4 or Red 8 check-in. So either those were holes in the Squadron roster (post Scarif) or they were there and we just don't hear them check in during that scene as the viewer. If the later is the case (and presumably it is, especially if we assume more than nine Red Squadron X-Wings at Yavin, it opens the door that lots of other Red Squadron members (12-22) may not have been heard checking in during that scene we see as the viewer, even though they exist.


We see at least 9 TIEs: six that roll in and begin attacking the Rebel fighters and then Vader and his two wing men. I assume there were more than this than we see, but there may not have been. The Death Star may not have been outfitted with much of a fighter compliment, since they never expected to be vulnerable to fighters and the Death Star had more than enough weaponry to deal with larger threats. Once Luke, Wedge, and the other X-Wings shoot down a few TIEs during the dogfight, they do seem relatively unharassed until in the trenches where Vader's group shows up.

I really think the number of TIEs typically assumed to be in service for the Empire is much less than most folks imagine. Everyone throws around the "76" TIEs per Star Destroyer number, but that number seems absurdly high to me. We just never see the Empire scramble huge numbers of TIEs at anything. In the escape from Hoth Vader is fixated on capturing the Millennium Falcon , to the point of having THREE Star Destroyers chasing it. Yet, despite three Star destroyers with their alleged 210+ TIE Fighters, only send four TIE fighters after the Falcon . When Han and company are trying to escape the Death Star, again only four TIEs are scrambled after them. If you really want to catch the Falcon , why not send a hundred TIEs after it? On Jakku, only two TIEs are sent after Rey/Finn. At Maz's castle, there are only about a dozen TIEs (half of which Poe kills himself), yet Ren flees to the Resurgence rather than having his twice-the-size-of-an-ISD scramble 150 more TIE fighters to crush the Resistance's forces.

Were there more than 9 (+4 killed by Han's escape) TIE Fighters on the Death Star? Almost certainly. Were more than nine scrambled at the Battle of Yavin? Probably. Were there dozens of TIEs? Maybe. Were there a hundred? Almost certainly not.

The Empire is kind of a tight-ass, and rarely faces a challenge of force that can't be solved by a few dozen troopers or a dozen TIEs. I don't think there are millions of TIE Fighters in service like the folks who think each and every ISD has 76 TIEs docked seem to think, because that would be incredibly inefficient for a galaxy-wide force that rarely sees any of its units actually enter into combat. Scarif having the most TIEs we see on screen makes sense, because Scarif is a stationary facility with incredibly valuable contents, so the Empire can justify spending big to protect it. Does every single Star Destroyer in an ass-end of the galaxy have 76 TIEs? No, because nine times out of a ten, the ISD can handle any situation that emerges without a compliment of TIE Fighters.

Just saying: Chaser was present, and indeed shot down by wedge, during the battle of yavin.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Cartha

1 hour ago, Kharnvor said:

Regardless, it'd be awesome to see 30 Rebel ships and a similar number of TIEs on the table all at once. Truly Epic.

Part of these reason I did this was to see for personal amusement of "how many points would the Rebel assault fleet be in XWM?" Given that it is at c. 800 points, this would be totally do-able on a 6x6 play area with the trench set up from Degobah Dave. You could essentially double all his numbers, I suspect. (And since DD hands out proton torps for free, this is actually a 700 point list).

For even more fun, get 4 players per side and give them each 200 points, allowing 4 Rebel squads vs. scores of Imp TIE fighters. Glorious Team Epic!!

Just for the record Poe shot down 11 TIEs in a row in the famous 'That's one helluva pilot!' scene.

legends states that the DS only launched one squadron (presumed to be 12) plus Vade and his wingmen.

1 hour ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

Well, a couple of clarifications:

We see a few more Y-Wings. In one scene where Luke is strafing the Death Star we see a group of three flying in the background, though these are presumably not Dutch's group on their run.

We only here up through Red 11 report in, but most people assume you'd have an even number of fighters (in ideal conditions), so Red 12 (Puck Naeco) was created by Decipher. Of course, we also don't hear Red 4 or Red 8 check-in. So either those were holes in the Squadron roster (post Scarif) or they were there and we just don't hear them check in during that scene as the viewer. If the later is the case (and presumably it is, especially if we assume more than nine Red Squadron X-Wings at Yavin, it opens the door that lots of other Red Squadron members (12-22) may not have been heard checking in during that scene we see as the viewer, even though they exist.


We see at least 9 TIEs: six that roll in and begin attacking the Rebel fighters and then Vader and his two wing men. I assume there were more than this than we see, but there may not have been. The Death Star may not have been outfitted with much of a fighter compliment, since they never expected to be vulnerable to fighters and the Death Star had more than enough weaponry to deal with larger threats. Once Luke, Wedge, and the other X-Wings shoot down a few TIEs during the dogfight, they do seem relatively unharassed until in the trenches where Vader's group shows up.

I really think the number of TIEs typically assumed to be in service for the Empire is much less than most folks imagine. Everyone throws around the "76" TIEs per Star Destroyer number, but that number seems absurdly high to me. We just never see the Empire scramble huge numbers of TIEs at anything. In the escape from Hoth Vader is fixated on capturing the Millennium Falcon , to the point of having THREE Star Destroyers chasing it. Yet, despite three Star destroyers with their alleged 210+ TIE Fighters, only send four TIE fighters after the Falcon . When Han and company are trying to escape the Death Star, again only four TIEs are scrambled after them. If you really want to catch the Falcon , why not send a hundred TIEs after it? On Jakku, only two TIEs are sent after Rey/Finn. At Maz's castle, there are only about a dozen TIEs (half of which Poe kills himself), yet Ren flees to the Resurgence rather than having his twice-the-size-of-an-ISD scramble 150 more TIE fighters to crush the Resistance's forces.

Were there more than 9 (+4 killed by Han's escape) TIE Fighters on the Death Star? Almost certainly. Were more than nine scrambled at the Battle of Yavin? Probably. Were there dozens of TIEs? Maybe. Were there a hundred? Almost certainly not.

The Empire is kind of a tight-ass, and rarely faces a challenge of force that can't be solved by a few dozen troopers or a dozen TIEs. I don't think there are millions of TIE Fighters in service like the folks who think each and every ISD has 76 TIEs docked seem to think, because that would be incredibly inefficient for a galaxy-wide force that rarely sees any of its units actually enter into combat. Scarif having the most TIEs we see on screen makes sense, because Scarif is a stationary facility with incredibly valuable contents, so the Empire can justify spending big to protect it. Does every single Star Destroyer in an ass-end of the galaxy have 76 TIEs? No, because nine times out of a ten, the ISD can handle any situation that emerges without a compliment of TIE Fighters. [\spoiler]

Didn't realize there were a few Red pilots who didn't check in. Maybe they were short handed after Scarif. That also explains why they threw Luke in an X-Wing within an hour of him walking in the door in his shawl.

How long is a Star Destroyer these days? Let's compare it to a Nimitz-class carrier, the largest carriers in the world. They carry about 50 aircraft of various types, about half internally and half on the flight deck at any given time, and they're packed in tight. They're a little over 300 m long. Considering everything we've seen about the Empire's ship construction, they're all about big open spaces so just imagine how large the hangar bays have to be to fit ships that are essentially 9-meter per side cubes. I wouldn't be surprised if you're correct and 76 TIEs is too many simply due to space considerations.

47 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

Part of these reason I did this was to see for personal amusement of "how many points would the Rebel assault fleet be in XWM?" Given that it is at c. 800 points, this would be totally do-able on a 6x6 play area with the trench set up from Degobah Dave. You could essentially double all his numbers, I suspect. (And since DD hands out proton torps for free, this is actually a 700 point list).

For even more fun, get 4 players per side and give them each 200 points, allowing 4 Rebel squads vs. scores of Imp TIE fighters. Glorious Team Epic!!

Make it happen. Take pics. Bask in the awe.

55 minutes ago, GrimmyV said:

Just for the record Poe shot down 11 TIEs in a row in the famous 'That's one helluva pilot!' scene.

legends states that the DS only launched one squadron (presumed to be 12) plus Vade and his wingmen.

Ten...

Just now, Joe Boss Red Seven said:

Ten...

Still killed almost an entire squadron on his own