10 minutes ago, Vargas79 said:

Forgetting to set my dial at the beginning of a game for my 55 point Dengar. He was at the side of the board and my opponent elected to fly it off.

It was a regional and I was 4-0 at the time. Safe to say I lost the game, and went on to lose very narrowly in the 6th game (to my 5th round opponent's brother) finishing 4-2 and missing the cut.

Sorry but that is a real a** hole move from your opponent. Yes it is legal to act like this but I would never do such a thing. What a jerk

18 minutes ago, IG88E said:

Sorry but that is a real a** hole move from your opponent. Yes it is legal to act like this but I would never do such a thing. What a jerk

I wasn't overjoyed myself. My fault though.

1 hour ago, IG88E said:

Sorry but that is a real a** hole move from your opponent. Yes it is legal to act like this but I would never do such a thing. What a jerk

This is a complex issue. First, before I make some observations, let me say this: I would never do this to a player. In any game, at any level. I have had it done to me, in a tournament I was TOing, when I was interrupted with a question before finalizing my dials. That said:

(1) Some players would never do this in a Store Kit tournament, or even in a Store Championship, but wouldn't hesitate to do it in a Regionals. I genuinely don't grasp the distinction, but what the @#$% do I know? I still miss the days when opposing players in a basketball game would help each other off the floor, so I'm clearly a Pollyanna.

(2) It's a bad rule that even allows this. A rule that directly hands (probable) game-loss discretion to a player is simply asking to cause bad feelings between players. That's bad for the individual games, and it's bad for the game in general. Take game-loss discretion out of the hands of players, period. Make players earn their wins through out-listing, out-flying, and out-rolling their opponents. If the opposing player has no discretion on this, the penalized player cannot reasonably think the opposing player is a @#$%.

(3) Like the red-while-stressed rule (which was a good change that, despite claims when I suggested it two years ago that people would constantly game it to their benefit), the penalty for dial-related oversights like this should always be the same: "perform a 2-white straight maneuver." It might be worthwhile to add: "If it is not already stressed, your opponent may assign this ship a stress token."

6 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:

This is a complex issue. First, before I make some observations, let me say this: I would never do this to a player. In any game, at any level. I have had it done to me, in a tournament I was TOing, when I was interrupted with a question before finalizing my dials. That said:

(1) Some players would never do this in a Store Kit tournament, or even in a Store Championship, but wouldn't hesitate to do it in a Regionals. I genuinely don't grasp the distinction, but what the @#$% do I know? I still miss the days when opposing players in a basketball game would help each other off the floor, so I'm clearly a Pollyanna.

(2) It's a bad rule that even allows this. A rule that directly hands (probable) game-loss discretion to a player is simply asking to cause bad feelings between players. That's bad for the individual games, and it's bad for the game in general. Take game-loss discretion out of the hands of players, period. Make players earn their wins through out-listing, out-flying, and out-rolling their opponents. If the opposing player has no discretion on this, the penalized player cannot reasonably think the opposing player is a @#$%.

(3) Like the red-while-stressed rule (which was a good change that, despite claims when I suggested it two years ago that people would constantly game it to their benefit), the penalty for dial-related oversights like this should always be the same: "perform a 2-white straight maneuver." It might be worthwhile to add: "If it is not already stressed, assign this ship a stress token."

1). Some people feel that the higher level of competition, the higher standard of play a player should be held to. So things that would be let go at a store kit tournament are held to the rules more at regionals. Entirely depends on the player in question.

2). On the other hand, setting a dial is a pretty basic part of the game and shouldn't be hard to remember. At least with the current rules it's not exploitable by the player themselves. On the other hand, something similar to the new stress while red rule probably wouldn't be the end of the world either. It's worth noting though that the stressed red rule didn't change until it was fairly easily exploitable by your opponent to stress you in the activation phase. Unless an opponent steals your dial it's hard for them to force you into "forgetting" a dial. Most people I know just assume that they'll be going off the board, it's nothing personal to be having hard feelings at your opponent over. I had my soontir flown off the board at a tournament when I tried to do a red while stressed. I wasn't mad at my opponent, I'd have done the same thing in his place. I was just mad at myself for doing it in the first place.

3). Straight white doesn't work in ALL situations. What about when your opponent dials in a 2s when they have shaken Pilot so they aren't allowed to dial a straight maneuver? Making them do a 2s doesn't help the situation any.

25 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

1). Some people feel that the higher level of competition, the higher standard of play a player should be held to. So things that would be let go at a store kit tournament are held to the rules more at regionals. Entirely depends on the player in question.

I get why people who make the distinction claim it's a distinction. I just don't get why they actually make that distinction. In other words, if it's an @$$hole move at a Store Kit tournament (and since people make the distinction, they must at some level recognize it is), what -- exactly -- makes it no longer an @$$hole move at a Regional tournament? What -- exactly -- is on the line that makes it worth being at @$$hole at a Regionals tournament?

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2). On the other hand, setting a dial is a pretty basic part of the game and shouldn't be hard to remember.

On the other other hand, settings a dial is a pretty big part of the mechanics of the game, not the tactics and skill part of the game. If people really want to win X-Wing based on relative skill at maneuvering Star Wars ships around the playmat, they won't do this. And yet (unsurprisingly) IME it's the players who most insist that X-Wing should be a pure skill game that are most willing to do this and to attempt to defend the behavior.

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3). Straight white doesn't work in ALL situations. What about when your opponent dials in a 2s when they have shaken Pilot so they aren't allowed to dial a straight maneuver? Making them do a 2s doesn't help the situation any.

"Don't let the 'perfect' be the enemy of the 'good.' Not every penalty has to be devastating in every situation, as long as it addresses another problem well.

3 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:

I get why people who make the distinction claim it's a distinction. I just don't get why they actually make that distinction. In other words, if it's an @$$hole move at a Store Kit tournament (and since people make the distinction, they must at some level recognize it is), what -- exactly -- makes it no longer an @$$hole move at a Regional tournament? What -- exactly -- is on the line that makes it worth being at @$$hole at a Regionals tournament?

I agtually disagree that setting the dial to the move that works best for you is an a$$hole move (in general), even if that move takes them off the board. That said, with the example of flying dengar off the board round one for a missing dial I'd just let them set the dial. Or maybe set them a 1 straight or a hard along the board edge or whatever depending where I was. Once the game is going and we're in the fight where it acthally matters more I won't feel bad about flying them off the board.

Its less about being an a$$hole or not and how much you're willing to let your opponent get away with missed opportunities. At lower level competition, I'm more willing to let them take stuff back.

3 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:

On the other other hand, settings a dial is a pretty big part of the machanics of the game, not the tactics and skill part of the game. If people really want to win X-Wing based on relative skill at maneuvering Star Wars ships around the playmat, they won't do this. And yet (unsurprisingly) IME it's the players who most insist that X-Wing should be a pure skill game that are most willing to do this and to attempt to defend the behavior.

"Don't let the 'perfect' be the enemy of the 'good.' Not every penalty has to be devastating, as long as it addresses another problem well.

I'll give you that

It's funny, but yesterday I was playing in a small tournament against a new-ish player flying Echo, Whisper, and a TAP. Twice he measured decloak one way and decided to decloak another way. I struggled with it, because ...

(1) It didn't bother me. I personally think the game was intended to be "full measurement, all the time," as it was in the original rules, and I think it's actually better for the game. But I adhere to it, and of course it is a very clear rule.

(2) I knew if I said something, he'd be troubled by it.

So, I asked, "Is this your first tournament?" (It was, but he looked forward to playing in more.) "Okay, so I'm going to tell you something, and I want to stress that this does not bother me, and it bothering me is not why I'm telling you. I'm telling you because if you keep playing tournaments, you will run into people that it's important to, and because it's in the rules, you'll need to adhere to it, and not be surprised by it." (And then I explained that once you commit to actions like decloak or barrel roll direction, and so on, you have to complete them that way if possible.) And then ...

.. for literally two minutes, he felt bad about it, and kept asking if I wanted him to go back and do it the way he had measured, and so on. And I kept insisting that I had only even mentioned it so that he didn't get surprised by it in future tournament. And then I felt bad for making him feel bad. (I also felt bad about bombing his Echo and Whisper into stardust, but less bad.)

28 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

That said, with the example of flying dengar off the board round one for a missing dial I'd just let them set the dial. Or maybe set them a 1 straight or a hard along the board edge or whatever depending where I was.

Cool. Why?

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Once the game is going and we're in the fight where it acthally matters more I won't feel bad about flying them off the board.

Okay. Why? What changed, between Turn 1 and "in combat" that makes you more willing to use your discretion to make your opponent lose the game for a mistake that isn't about tactics or maneuvering?

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At lower level competition, I'm more willing to let them take stuff back.

I know. I get it: less likely to be nice at higher levels. I don't have a problem understanding what happens ... what I don't get is why it's that way. What is it at a Regionals that makes it less worthwhile to be a nice guy than at a Store Kit?

18 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:

It's funny, but yesterday I was playing in a small tournament against a new-ish player flying Echo, Whisper, and a TAP. Twice he measured decloak one way and decided to decloak another way. I struggled with it, because ...

(1) It didn't bother me. I personally think the game was intended to be "full measurement, all the time," as it was in the original rules, and I think it's actually better for the game. But I adhere to it, and of course it is a very clear rule.

(2) I knew if I said something, he'd be troubled by it.

So, I asked, "Is this your first tournament?" (It was, but he looked forward to playing in more.) "Okay, so I'm going to tell you something, and I want to stress that this does not bother me, and it bothering me is not why I'm telling you. I'm telling you because if you keep playing tournaments, you will run into people that it's important to, and because it's in the rules, you'll need to adhere to it, and not be surprised by it." (And then I explained that once you commit to actions like decloak or barrel roll direction, and so on, you have to complete them that way if possible.) And then ...

.. for literally two minutes, he felt bad about it, and kept asking if I wanted him to go back and do it the way he had measured, and so on. And I kept insisting that I had only even mentioned it so that he didn't get surprised by it in future tournament. And then I felt bad for making him feel bad. (I also felt bad about bombing his Echo and Whisper into stardust, but less bad.)

That's pretty much how I handle it with new players (or casual games). "Hey, just for future reference, you can't measure before you decide a boost or barrel roll. Once you put down the template you're committed to going that way. Don't worry about it right now, but just you'll run into people that will hold you to it." And in a tournament setting, if they didn't know the rule before I'll usually let them take it back that time if they wanna go a different way (or do a different action), but earn them I'll hold them to it later in the game.

9 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:

Cool. Why?

Okay. Why? What changed, between Turn 1 and "in combat" that makes you more willing to use your discretion to make your opponent lose the game for a mistake that isn't about tactics or maneuvering?

Probably because turn one probably doesn't matter that much, and I'd rather not win the game before it even started. I want to get to at least play.

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I know. I get it: less likely to be nice at higher levels. I don't have a problem understanding what happens ... what I don't get is why it's that way. What is it at a Regionals that makes it less worthwhile to be a nice guy than at a Store Kit?

It's not about being "nice" or not. It's about the expectation of people following the rules and being held to them. If you want to compete at higher level events, you should be able to remember to set your dials and to do actions correctly, etc versus a store kit tournament where you may be playing against people playing their second game ever.

4 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

It's not about being "nice" or not. It's about the expectation of people following the rules and being held to them.

But that's exactly what it is. On the one hand (Store Kit tourney), you're being kind and forgiving (i.e., nice) to a player because he made a mistake, perhaps because he's new-ish to the game. On the other hand (Regionals tourney), you're not behaving the same way to a player, even if he's new-ish to the game.

The variable is the level of tournament. So what is it about the level of the tournament that makes you feel justified in behaving differently? Again, I'm not disputing that it's a higher-level tournament. I'm not disputing that most players there will consider themselves more competitive, and behave to higher standards. I'm not even disputing that the tournament documents do spell out differences in the tournament tiers. I'm not asking that.

I'm asking what about higher-level tournaments do you use to justify the change in your behavior toward other people. The rules don't require you to change your behavior, right? So it's a choice. What is the choice based in? What, for you, justifies it?

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If you want to compete at higher level events, you should be able to remember to set your dials and to do actions correctly, etc versus a store kit tournament where you may be playing against people playing their second game ever.

You may very well be competing at a Regionals against a player playing their second game ever, right?

12 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:

But that's exactly what it is. On the one hand (Store Kit tourney), you're being kind and forgiving (i.e., nice) to a player because he made a mistake, perhaps because he's new-ish to the game. On the other hand (Regionals tourney), you're not behaving the same way to a player, even if he's new-ish to the game.

The variable is the level of tournament. So what is it about the level of the tournament that makes you feel justified in behaving differently? Again, I'm not disputing that it's a higher-level tournament. I'm not disputing that most players there will consider themselves more competitive, and behave to higher standards. I'm not even disputing that the tournament documents do spell out differences in the tournament tiers. I'm not asking that.

Because a store kit tournament is a "casual" tournament. It's not part of the competitive track leading up to worlds (not that I get to anything higher than a regional), it's a monthly (or whatever) fun tournament to have fun, play some games, maybe get some new people into the game.

Store Championships and Regionals and above are part of the competitive tournament track, the expectation is if you're there you should know how the rules work and be able to play fairly competently. You can still go if you're brand new, but you'll probably get less leeway than at a normal tournament

As you said yourself, the rules themselves spell out a difference between the tournament tiers. I pretty much treat it exactly the way the rules say to. You can't just say "it doesn't matter what the rules say, that's not the question" when the rules have direct bearing on the question in hand

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I'm asking what about higher-level tournaments do you use to justify the change in your behavior toward other people. The rules don't require you to change your behavior, right? So it's a choice. What is the choice based in? What, for you, justifies it?

You may very well be competing at a Regionals against a player playing their second game ever, right?

Technically the rules DO point out how the behavior should be, although there's no enforcement of that. And sure, I may play at a regional against someone on their second game ever. But that's there choice to go to a competitive level tournament when they just learned to play. I might even be slightly easier on them than I would someone else (I still don't want to make it a terrible experience for them), but that won't stop me from beating them, or even holding them to the rules.

Theres a difference between "I'm going to hold you (and myself) to the rules because we're at a competitive event" and something like PGS "I'll let you do it right up until it benefits me most then change my mind so I can screw you over.", or asking to take back your own mistakes but not letting the opponent do so

You can be a perfectly "nice" player without ever letting an opponent take back missed opportunities. As long as you don't do it in a mean way and you hold yourself to the same standard.

5 hours ago, Vargas79 said:

Forgetting to set my dial at the beginning of a game for my 55 point Dengar. He was at the side of the board and my opponent elected to fly it off.

It was a regional and I was 4-0 at the time. Safe to say I lost the game, and went on to lose very narrowly in the 6th game (to my 5th round opponent's brother) finishing 4-2 and missing the cut.

5 hours ago, IG88E said:

Sorry but that is a real a** hole move from your opponent. Yes it is legal to act like this but I would never do such a thing. What a jerk

I agree with IG88E, that's an s*** move. He obviously thought very low of himself and was scared of actually playing against you. Usually, I turn them away from my ships with a turn, never off the board. I feel your pain....I had that happen to me once out of state; he was also an a**. Guess there are more gentlemen who 'want a fair fight around these parts.' ?

Forgetting to use Whisper's ability 2 games in a row at a store tournament. Both games came down to each of us having one ship left with a single hull point. I ended up losing both games and I know that focus token would have helped me at some point.

Biggest fail: Gozanti, loaded up with the Baron and two of his royal guard pals. Barely taken a hit. I manage to edge it too close to the table edge and over compensate in turning away. It's arse hangs over by a few mm, and it's front clips an Omicron Group pilot who was trying to turn around after a very good first run... Left me with another naked shuttle, Baron Rudor and one tie left on the table (I had already lost three ties and Vader in the alpha strike) against an enemy raider with a phantom and deci (and some ties but I can't remember what) in escort.

Second biggest:

Torpedo Gozanti for one of the mini campaign missions... Launch all four of my ties. An enemy Awing swoops in right in the middle of them... I Ion torpedo it... And had forgotten the splash. Think I got all but one, but it might have been all four of the ties. To make matters worse, it was the mission where you need to chase the enemy leader (in this case the ghost) down, no was that was happening now.

18 hours ago, IG88E said:

Sorry but that is a real a** hole move from your opponent. Yes it is legal to act like this but I would never do such a thing. What a jerk

I disagree. They didn't set a dial. The rule is that the opponent chooses the move, and choosing it to go off the board is a legitimate choice. I've been on the receiving end of it, and it's in the rules. My mistake.

That said, in a < regional tournament, where there's less at stake (bearing in mind they were 4-0 at that point) I probably wouldn't fly it off the board. It depends on the player I suppose, a new player I'm happy to give more leeway to but if it's someone I know has played for a while then I'll be less lenient.

I've had an opponent who set a turn which flew a fully healthy (but stressed) Assaj off the board. I insisted that he check through his dial and see if he could set a turn which kept her in play; he did so, having misread the dial - he had thought that her hard 2 was red.

This was in a minor tournament, but I intend to keep flying this way even if I am ever in a top place in a more important tournament. The key thing to me is to enjoy my time playing a game, not to be a jerk. (Although, sometimes, I probably am.)

20 hours ago, Jeff Wilder said:

But that's exactly what it is. On the one hand (Store Kit tourney), you're being kind and forgiving (i.e., nice) to a player because he made a mistake, perhaps because he's new-ish to the game. On the other hand (Regionals tourney), you're not behaving the same way to a player, even if he's new-ish to the game.

The variable is the level of tournament. So what is it about the level of the tournament that makes you feel justified in behaving differently? Again, I'm not disputing that it's a higher-level tournament. I'm not disputing that most players there will consider themselves more competitive, and behave to higher standards. I'm not even disputing that the tournament documents do spell out differences in the tournament tiers. I'm not asking that.

I'm asking what about higher-level tournaments do you use to justify the change in your behavior toward other people. The rules don't require you to change your behavior, right? So it's a choice. What is the choice based in? What, for you, justifies it?

You may very well be competing at a Regionals against a player playing their second game ever, right?

I agree with you, Jeff.

There is no reason to be a jerk whether its store kit or regionals. This is a game with plastic figures pew pew-ing around a mat with cardboard and acrylic as prizes. If it's a pro-circuit and this is how you make a living, that is one thing, a game for a 10-cent prizes is another.

Was at regionals and a guy was brand new mostly, didnt know how mindlink worked, he only heard of it. So I explained to him how it worked. Opening round of combat he had PTL Fenn Rau who one-shotted my Old Teroch. But still, throughout the game I was reminding him of his abilities as he kept forgetting about Fenn getting an extra green dice at range 1.

-----------------------------

Back to the topic, my biggest fail:

I was at a regionals in Vegas playing against Dash and Jan Ors. I took Dash out and it was 6 hull Ketsu and full health Teroch vs Jan Ors now. Game is in the bag. I think Ketsu is stressed and I want to clear stress to turn her arc and get a shot. Plenty of room to turn (or so I thought). Dial in the 3-sharp and her corner is off the board. UGH. Kicker is, she wasn't even stressed, that was the previous round, haha. So I could have 2-sharp and turned my arc. Ended up losing that game on points. Woo hoo.

20 minutes ago, wurms said:

I agree with you, Jeff.

There is no reason to be a jerk whether its store kit or regionals. This is a game with plastic figures pew pew-ing around a mat with cardboard and acrylic as prizes. If it's a pro-circuit and this is how you make a living, that is one thing, a game for a 10-cent prizes is another.

Was at regionals and a guy was brand new mostly, didnt know how mindlink worked, he only heard of it. So I explained to him how it worked. Opening round of combat he had PTL Fenn Rau who one-shotted my Old Teroch. But still, throughout the game I was reminding him of his abilities as he kept forgetting about Fenn getting an extra green dice at range 1.

Holding your opponent to the rules doesn't make you a jerk. You can do it in a way that MAKES you a jerk, but that's a different question.

Also, if you're doing regionals and a bove, it's for prizes that are worth quite a bit more than 10 cents. Not thousands of dollars, sure, but you can easily get hundreds.

I won the first two rounds of a tournament. I was well on my way to a third win with my crazy Keyan/Tycho/Jake build (yep, this was when Rebel Aces hit the shelves!) and I forgot that Tycho was stressed (easy to do, actually) and set a K-Turn on him! This was before the 2-straight white rule, so my opponent 3-turned him right off the board! Oops!

I didn't expect to do real well at the Hoth Open this year, but I really like my Scum Aces list. The photo below was the perfect set up for my squad:

That's Old Terry stripping off focuses. Talonbane whiffs an Ion Pulse Missiles shot--I fail to use Munitions Failsafe to a primary shot. (It gets worse.) Old Terry fails with his four dice to get a hit and Fenn Rau has lone hit evaded. Potentially dead Vessery has much better luck with his rolls. It took nineteen rolls to register a hit and by then it was pretty much smoke and no mirrors.

2 minutes ago, Ob3ron said:

I didn't expect to do real well at the Hoth Open this year, but I really like my Scum Aces list. The photo below was the perfect set up for my squad:

That's Old Terry stripping off focuses. Talonbane whiffs an Ion Pulse Missiles shot--I fail to use Munitions Failsafe to a primary shot. (It gets worse.) Old Terry fails with his four dice to get a hit and Fenn Rau has lone hit evaded. Potentially dead Vessery has much better luck with his rolls. It took nineteen rolls to register a hit and by then it was pretty much smoke and no mirrors.

I know it's not the point of your post, but your opponents' Defenders look really silly spinning off at random angles like that! I know it's because they're fancy and magnetized, but they still look silly!