Normally it cost 2 engineering points to recover 1 shield point, with this card, one ship can recover that same, single point for free per turn.
For 8 points, is it a decent modification?
There are 5 ships and 1 specific variant (Imperial II) that can take it. List
No it's not.
It has a few problems, but the main ones are:
I've had a little fun with it on Arquitens with Moff Jerjerrod (as he can ping them on turn 1 so the Redundant Shields start working top of turn 2 and at the very least they help recover from Jerry pinging them) but even then being a modification gets in the way of taking the turbolasers you want.
Mostly what Snipafist said.
In wave 2, there were a few situations where I might have tried it. In wave 5, almost any situation where I might have used redundant shields makes Reinforced Blast Doors that much better, The trouble in the game of Armada is that the damage tends to be done right here and now and Redundant Shields simply does not have enough time to work to justify its cost. After all, if you're potentially getting 3 damage from the RBD, then you need to regen at least 3 shields to have the same benefit from a card that is likely to trigger and which is 3 points cheaper.
To make it work, you're really going to need a situation where you can reliably maneuver to stay at red range and are comfortable trading shots slowly over the course of the game. In theory, that sounds nice, but with the way that activations and first player work in Armada, it turns out to be pretty difficult in practice.
I had fun running a Projection Experts redundant shields CR90B for a long time, but nowadays it just runs a little costly for the effect in todays flottila fleet support days.
It can work, but yeah it really is overcosted for what you end up getting. If you could OVERCHARGE shields it would be different, but unfortunately it isn't the case.
RBD = 9 engineering points
RS = if it starts doing something on round 2, it will regen 5 shields which is equal to 10 engineering points.
In short, RS should have been around the same cost as RBD, if not less because it's not a burst of regen.
Or, make RS a discard card that lets you regen 4 shields for a cost of 6. Call it secondary shield batteries or emergency batteries.
Anyway, redundant shields suck hard if you look at the engineering values they provide. The only way they would provide more than RBD is if you overlap a debris field on turn 1....
I find that half of the time, the complaints of why RS isn't any good - can be very easily mirrored with Other Upgrades.
As itis, RBD only clears 9 points of Engineering in Hull Value if its all face down. Face ups don't get cleared.
They can have their place.
Usually, its on the Tankiest Tank of Tanks - the MC80 Assault. Paired with another defensive modification, to make the ship as tanky as possible. As long as you don't intend to take Hull Damage, Redundant Shields is useful - pairing with ECM or Advanced Projectors in that case.
Something that can take a hit, and shrug off the damage. BEFORE it gets to the Hull.
Every shield that gets Regen'd, is one less Hull Point of Damage - especially against bombers and such.
I just find that with Reinforced Blast Doors, if I'm taking multiple strikes on the Hull - I'm going to die before I can use RBD - or even if I use it, it saves 3 hull and I'm out....
(That's not neccessarily a positive in Redundant Shield's favour - rather - its a negative to everything.)
18 minutes ago, Sybreed said:Anyway, redundant shields suck hard if you look at the engineering values they provide. The only way they would provide more than RBD is if you overlap a debris field on turn 1....
For those player 1 dangerous territory situations.
Oh wait, we have a 2 point chart officer for that...or Jaina's light...or just regular engineering commands....
In all honesty I think projection experts is a place for it, as well as JerJerrod fleets. The only other option I see is a crazy regen build. Stacking engineering commands with tokens on top of RS as well as Sheilds to Maximum.
Redundant Shields isn't good it should have been increased the max value of shileds for each of your hull zone then it would be good/okay on some ships, but as it stands really the only ship I would even consider putting it on would be the mc-80 home one assault variant, and that's only because it can take another defficsive retrofit.
35 minutes ago, Sybreed said:Anyway, redundant shields suck hard if you look at the engineering values they provide. The only way they would provide more than RBD is if you overlap a debris field on turn 1....
...or if you aren't playing a 6-round game, for example.
Not sure 7 rounds (Corellian Conflict) is quite enough, even, but if you were doing a homebrew scenario or campaign and playing 'until one side or the other is entirely destroyed'...man, redundant shields would be amazing for that battle...
I've my only ever made it work in an absurd super-aggressive 2xMC80 Assault Cruiser build. They both ran ECM/RS/Projection Experts. The addition of projection experts was the only way to justify Redundant Shields. It guaranteed I would start getting a benefit on turn 3 (4 at latest) and justifying the cost.
Otherwise, tough sell
that's a bunch of Ifs
IMO the card needs a complete rework (I know I know, it's not really in FFG's habits to do that).
Regen 2 per turn is almost too good, although for 8 points? Hmm... that would be a card I would really consider taking, it's still a modification after all.
Making it a burst recharge makes it too much alike RBD, and I'd just design an entire new card instead.
Just reduce its cost back to 5, and I think we have a decent upgrade. Not sure anyone would still take it though.
1 minute ago, Sybreed said:Just reduce its cost back to 5, and I think we have a decent upgrade. Not sure anyone would still take it though.
Then by definition, its not a decent upgrade.
2 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:Then by definition, its not a decent upgrade.
ehh, it's just that Armada by design prefers bursts over "over time" stuff. That's why RBD is so good. Making RS 2 regen per turn would be a good compromise between "burst" and "over time". Although I think the cost should increase to 10 at this point.
Edited by SybreedHow would any of you rework the effect on the card?
xero989: increased the max value of shields per hull zone
Sybreed: a discard card that lets you regen 4 shields for a cost of 6 points
Sybreed: recover 2 shield points per turn and cost point increase to 10 points
1 minute ago, Sybreed said:ehh, it's just that Armada by design prefers bursts over "over time" stuff. That's why RBD is so good. Making RS 2 regen per turn would be a good compromise between "burst" and "over time". Although I think the cost should increase to 10 at this point.
Rather than a flat '2 per turn', have the card repair 1 shield per turn, on up to two shields.
Sort of same effect, if you are getting hit from multiple sides - but if suffering from an enemy just drilling you through one shield, then basically nothing more than it already does*. Sort of splits the difference, that way, which probably lets the current cost work.
* Basically nothing more - it does let you get a little more mileage out of your engineering tokens, in that 'moving shields around' becomes a more viable defense strategy.
I like Xero's idea, but I think it should be an entire new card instead. A pricey one.
Just now, xanderf said:Rather than a flat '2 per turn', have the card repair 1 shield per turn, on up to two shields.
Sort of same effect, if you are getting hit from multiple sides - but if suffering from an enemy just drilling you through one shield, then basically nothing more than it already does*. Sort of splits the difference, that way, which probably lets the current cost work.
* Basically nothing more - it does let you get a little more mileage out of your engineering tokens, in that 'moving shields around' becomes a more viable defense strategy.
it's doable, I guess. ISDs would love these.
Well, would the wording be something like this " At the start of each Status Phase , you may recover 1 shield per hull zone up to 2 maximum hull zones."?
8 minutes ago, Sybreed said:ehh, it's just that Armada by design prefers bursts over "over time" stuff. That's why RBD is so good. Making RS 2 regen per turn would be a good compromise between "burst" and "over time". Although I think the cost should increase to 10 at this point.
I was just commenting on your inherent dichotomy...
"Makes it a decent upgrade."
vs
"Don't think anyone will take it."
... If no-one will take it, its not a decent upgrade...
Just now, Drasnighta said:I was just commenting on your inherent dichotomy...
"Makes it a decent upgrade."
vs
"Don't think anyone will take it."
... If no-one will take it, its not a decent upgrade...
blame my 15 hours work shift for that one
3 minutes ago, Alexhurlbut said:Well, would the wording be something like this " At the start of each Status Phase , you may recover 1 shield per hull zone up to 2 maximum hull zones."?
sounds about right
Well MC80 Assault Cruiser would love that tweak on the RS XD
5 minutes ago, Alexhurlbut said:Well MC80 Assault Cruiser would love that tweak on the RS XD
between that and advanced projectors... I think this one becomes an auto include. It's like doing an engineering command every turn. Hmmm... even my idea is probably overpowered.
edit: Big issue is that it removes the need to do a specific command, and I doubt FFG wants that.
Edited by Sybreedokay. Here's the thing: link it to a engineering command like engine tech and navs. Then it becomes more balanced.
When you resolve (engineering command): You can recover an additionnal shield and moving shields from a hull zone to another cost is reduced to 0.
Id take it for 6 or 7pts if it wasnt a modification. Id use it frequently on long range skirmishers like the Kitten, CR90s, etc. Id consider it a must have on the MC80 at that point.
As it is, nah, its the upgrade that I loved but could never justify.