Please forgive if this has been answered before. We had a question on timing with Core L166 "A Lannister always pays his debts". I'm sure this question could relate to other similar cards/cases as well.

The card reads, " Response : After you lose a challenge, kneel one of your characters to choose and kill a participating character controlled by the winning opponent."

Our question is when can "A Lannister always pays his debts" legally be played? Why is this possibly important? Someone may want to play that card before they have to discard any cards due to their opponents claim for winning an intrigue challenge.

Our confusion lies in questioning whether or not the framework action for challenges:

1. Determine winner of challnge

2. Challenge result is implemented (claim?)

3. Reward for unopposed challenge is rewarded

4. Renown is rewarded

...all resolve before any responses to those can be played since they are all listed under one framework action window. In that case "A Lannister pays his debts" may end up getting discarded randomly to satisfy an intrigue claim before it could be played. Or can it be played after "1. Determine winner of challenge" (which would mean responses could be played after each of those 4 framework actions?).

To try and say it another way...I guess it comes down to making sense of the flowcharts referencing a "Framework event" and having to resolve all 4 before responses are played OR if each of those 4 are individual framework events, and thus, responses can be played after any of those resolve. Specifically, in this case it seems it's either a valid response after "1. Determine winner of challenge" happens or after all 4 happen.

Our initial thought was after all 4, but now I'm not so sure and figured I'd ask here. I hope that makes sense! Thanks!!

The flowchart is incomplete. You need to look at the actual text of the FAQ in the "Framework Actions" section. The red text there gives a specific example of how to resolve a military challenge. The steps are:

A. Determine the winner

B. Challenge result implemented

C. Award power for unopposed

D. Award power for renown

E. Resolve passive effects triggered in the preceding steps (including keywords like Deadly) here

F. Trigger responses

Step F is the first opportunity you have to play A Lannister Pays His Debts (or any other response that is not a save/cancel).

But what's a Lannister player doing losing an intrigue challenge any way? ; )

Madduxx said:

To make things just a little more confusing, each of those 4 things are technically separate framework events, but they all happen in the same framework action window. When multiple framework events share a single window, they all resolve separately, but the share a single passive and Response opportunity. The FAQ says this when it describes how you "cycle through" Steps 1-3 of the action window for each framework event before proceeding to a common Steps 4-6. This becomes important because it means canceling the challenge result ("claim") does not cancel awarding Renown.

So yes, determining the challenge winner comes before - and separate from - claim, but the timing structure does not give you the opportunity to play Responses or resolve passive effects to winning/losing the challenge until after claim is settled and unopposed and Renown are awarded. You can indeed lose ALPHD to claim in an intrigue challenge before getting a chance to play it.

schrecklich said:

Haha! Good question! What can I say... I got lucky winning an intrigue challenge against my Lannister opponent.

tks all, this answeared my unasked question about when exaclty keywords other than renown resolved!