20 minutes ago, Tebbo said:

No one else is regularly talking to their dead ancestors about stuff or using trained animals in battle.

To each their own but I think you're being a tad disingenuous.

The point of the clan is that they are the most Samurai of Samurai, in a setting of Samurai. This means their distinguishing factor is that they are trying to fit in the best. This, to me, makes for bad storytelling, since the best you can do is use the Lion as a foil to whatever someone else is doing.

Kitsune and Toritaka both have some form of spirit interaction for battle. It is not exactly the same, but I also don't think the whole ancestor thing as being a core clan concept, just something they've picked up. Its like saying that the Agasha/Tamori use potions. Sure, its a thing, but is it what you think of when you think "Dragon Clan". Or the Henshin monks. You don't really think of them when you think "Phoenix".

1 minute ago, JJ48 said:

I don't think it's necessarily a problem with the Lion themselves so much as how people tend to portray them.

To me, they seem to suffer in much the same way as Paladins in D&D: you can portray them as interesting characters, but many people instead caricature them as haughty jerks that nobody likes and who go around bullying others.

I agree that they get portrayed badly, but I think it stems in part from their concept as a clan. The interesting Lion characters are the ones who are different, which is counter from their core clan concept. I hope that FFG can develop them into something more interesting.

I realize I am somewhat simplifying the whole "Honor" virtue, but a lot of the time it means "Do what your Leader/Daimyo/Emperor tells you, regardless of personal misgivings or risk to yourself". Not always, and there is nuance to it, but the lion are usually portrayed as these decisions are black and white.

8 minutes ago, Mirith said:

I agree that they get portrayed badly, but I think it stems in part from their concept as a clan. The interesting Lion characters are the ones who are different, which is counter from their core clan concept. I hope that FFG can develop them into something more interesting.

I realize I am somewhat simplifying the whole "Honor" virtue, but a lot of the time it means "Do what your Leader/Daimyo/Emperor tells you, regardless of personal misgivings or risk to yourself". Not always, and there is nuance to it, but the lion are usually portrayed as these decisions are black and white.

In a world/society revolving around groups of people who are defined by how they're different from Samurai, having one group that fits the mold of the romantic version of a Samurai is good.

3 minutes ago, ricefrisbeetreats said:

In a world/society revolving around groups of people who are defined by how they're different from Samurai, having one group that fits the mold of the romantic version of a Samurai is good.

I don't disagree with this sentiment either really, because you are correct, you need it there for the point of contrast. But, it also makes them boring, since they are the backdrop for everyone else's story.

Well I think it more says something about the personality who likes/doesn't like that thing than anything.

All of the clans are one dimensional at face value. That's how it kind of works, they can all be described in like 2-3 words.

For me Scorpion are boring. They are one note. An entire clan of 'means to an end' thinkers.

I used to think Lion were boring and a bunch of dumb bullies. They were probably the only clan I actively sort of disliked. After I saw the Lion Clan players in Winter Court IV, though, I definitely changed my opinion. They were cool as hell, stood out, were a joy to interact with... all while they stubbornly stuck to all sorts of Lion Clan stereotypes without subverting them. I came to think that that all four Lion families absolutely stand out as unique families in Rokugan, and that they have interesting virtues and flaws the same as anyone else. In retrospect, I feel I just never gave them a chance. Partially because they feel like dumb bullies at times, and partially because their "gimmick" as a genius military powerhouse feels less unique than that of other clans'.

That's just me, of course. I'm not saying that everyone who dislikes Lion just dislikes them because they don't "get it".

18 minutes ago, Tebbo said:

Well I think it more says something about the personality who likes/doesn't like that thing than anything.

All of the clans are one dimensional at face value. That's how it kind of works, they can all be described in like 2-3 words.

For me Scorpion are boring. They are one note. An entire clan of 'means to an end' thinkers.

Oh, so all the clans can be described in 2-3 words? Do you honestly think that someone could describe the Mantis as simply "pirate merchant archers" and really give someone an accurate description of the clan, including...all the subtle...nuances.........

Ok, you may have a point there.

2 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

Oh, so all the clans can be described in 2-3 words? Do you honestly think that someone could describe the Mantis as simply "pirate merchant archers" and really give someone an accurate description of the clan, including...all the subtle...nuances.........

Ok, you may have a point there.

Least it's more than one word.

Unicorn: Horsies.

52 minutes ago, RandomJC said:

Least it's more than one word.

Unicorn: Horsies.

You get two, Horse Barbarians.

Crab: Against Shadowlands (Or Smelly Brutes)

Crane: Snobby Artisans (Or Politicians, but I feel like the whole art thing defines the clan well)

Dragon: Navel Gazers

Lion: Samurai Bullies (Super honor? I guess if you were nice "Honorable Tacticians" is really the clan theme)

Phoenix: MAGIC! (With jazz hands)

Mantis: Merchant Pirates

Scorpion: Political Machinations (Or Not Ninjas).

Spider: Terrible Idea. Or Emo Anti-Hero.

Unicorn: Horse Barbarians (Mongol horde?)

So Crab are THE embodiment of Strength in the empire (Water, not Earth).
The Dragon "are the Mountain," stoically surviving their home's harsh conditions (Earth, not Fire).
Lion are ferocious and unwavering (Fire) just as much as they are tactical and adaptable (Water).
The "adaptable" argument for Lion being water applies even moreso to Scorpion who adapt so much they don't even let Bushido get in their way...

tl;dr - Very hard to pin one clan down to one element.

As for the Lion, I think they're probably one of the few exceptions where the playerbase understood the clan better than the story team. This clan that stands as a bastion of honor is so often portrayed as the bullies who lord their "honorable" status over their foes that it just gets cliché and tiresome and ends up making the clan boring. No one looks up to the Lion in jealous awe, and that's the real shame. They've never felt like the inspiration they're meant to be.
I think the playerbase is a lot at fault there, as everyone (Scorpion/Shadowlands excepted) just assumes their clan is just as honorable as the Lion, but that's really really not true.
The Lion are the pinnacle. They are what anyone who wants to follow bushido should strive to be.
The Crane/Phoenix are the ones striving the hardest, and not quiiiiite getting there. Almost. So close. Not quite.
The Dragon/Unicorn are *mostly* honorable, but they won't let it get in the way either. Very much "middle of the road," and that makes them unpredictable.
The Crab are even lower on the scale, as their Duty is paramount, and if Honor would get in the way, then Honor be dammed. They don't outright shun it however, and will follow bushido while it isn't being a hindrance.
The (former) Mantis are a giant mish-mash of ideologies, but generally speaking the Yoritomo/Tsuruchi pay lip service to bushido at best, while the Kitsune/Moshi are up in Dragon/Unicorn territory.
And then you have the Scorpion who mock the very idea of Bushido as a fool's errand, placing no value in it at all with the exception of ultimate loyalty to clan and empire.
Shadowlands aren't even on the scale.

If less non-Lion players picked interesting choices based on where their clan *actually* fell instead of trying to be "the good guys" in all instances, we'd have a much more interesting Lion Clan (and Story in general), IMO.

2 minutes ago, Bayushi Tsubaki said:

So Crab are THE embodiment of Strength in the empire (Water, not Earth).
The Dragon "are the Mountain," stoically surviving their home's harsh conditions (Earth, not Fire).
Lion are ferocious and unwavering (Fire) just as much as they are tactical and adaptable (Water).
The "adaptable" argument for Lion being water applies even moreso to Scorpion who adapt so much they don't even let Bushido get in their way...

tl;dr - Very hard to pin one clan down to one element.

As for the Lion, I think they're probably one of the few exceptions where the playerbase understood the clan better than the story team. This clan that stands as a bastion of honor is so often portrayed as the bullies who lord their "honorable" status over their foes that it just gets cliché and tiresome and ends up making the clan boring. No one looks up to the Lion in jealous awe, and that's the real shame. They've never felt like the inspiration they're meant to be.
I think the playerbase is a lot at fault there, as everyone (Scorpion/Shadowlands excepted) just assumes their clan is just as honorable as the Lion, but that's really really not true.
The Lion are the pinnacle. They are what anyone who wants to follow bushido should strive to be.
The Crane/Phoenix are the ones striving the hardest, and not quiiiiite getting there. Almost. So close. Not quite.
The Dragon/Unicorn are *mostly* honorable, but they won't let it get in the way either. Very much "middle of the road," and that makes them unpredictable.
The Crab are even lower on the scale, as their Duty is paramount, and if Honor would get in the way, then Honor be dammed. They don't outright shun it however, and will follow bushido while it isn't being a hindrance.
The (former) Mantis are a giant mish-mash of ideologies, but generally speaking the Yoritomo/Tsuruchi pay lip service to bushido at best, while the Kitsune/Moshi are up in Dragon/Unicorn territory.
And then you have the Scorpion who mock the very idea of Bushido as a fool's errand, placing no value in it at all with the exception of ultimate loyalty to clan and empire.
Shadowlands aren't even on the scale.

If less non-Lion players picked interesting choices based on where their clan *actually* fell instead of trying to be "the good guys" in all instances, we'd have a much more interesting Lion Clan (and Story in general), IMO.

As I said - went by their shugenja families. You can make the argument for every ring with every clan. But most clans have 1 Shugenja family, and most of those families are strong with 1 element over the others.

2 hours ago, Mirith said:

Kitsune and Toritaka both have some form of spirit interaction for battle. It is not exactly the same, but I also don't think the whole ancestor thing as being a core clan concept, just something they've picked up. Its like saying that the Agasha/Tamori use potions. Sure, its a thing, but is it what you think of when you think "Dragon Clan". Or the Henshin monks. You don't really think of them when you think "Phoenix".

I disagree. I see ancestor worship as one of the most defining things about being a Lion, moreso even than tacticians. This is because the Lion have a telephone line to their ancestors. They know exactly what their ancestors expect from them, and the standards they must adhere to so they can make it to the better afterlives. More than anyone else, the Lion know the price of dishonor. It's a huge part of their motivation.

31 minutes ago, Bayushi Tsubaki said:

As for the Lion, I think they're probably one of the few exceptions where the playerbase understood the clan better than the story team. This clan that stands as a bastion of honor is so often portrayed as the bullies who lord their "honorable" status over their foes that it just gets cliché and tiresome and ends up making the clan boring. No one looks up to the Lion in jealous awe, and that's the real shame. They've never felt like the inspiration they're meant to be.

There's probably some instance I don't recall, but I'm not sure there's ever really been stories written were you see members of one Clan really looking up to another Clan (maybe one specific person, but not the whole Clan). After the Celestial Heavens came down to Rokugan and declared the Dragon to be the best most wonderful clan ever and thus worthy of providing the new imperial dynasty, arguing that this should at some point be acknowledge in some way in-story - somebody somewhere wondering if maybe the Dragon were doing something right that their clan should be emulating. Nothing like that ever happened in an official fiction. We did find a lot of positive reception from players to an argument along that line at Winter Court (e.g., the Celestial Heavens picked the daimyo of the Kitsuki as Empress, maybe you should give that Kitsuki Method thing a second look). But we never could get the ST to write anything like that then, and I don't know if they ever did it with respect to any other clan either. I think that partially comes from not wanting to make an "X Clan story" that isn't about making X Clan look cool, because X Clan players might complain.

It affects the Crane too. Everyone's supposed to look up to them in pretty much anything cultural, but you never see a fiction with some courtier feeling bad (or looked down upon by neutral third parties) because they aren't up to the right style standards. Every once in a while you'll get to see the Crane leverage something, but the other party involved typically sees it as unfair or ridiculous, rather than reasonable (at least when the Lion smash someone on the battlefield, the losing side doesn't think it's unfair that having more soldiers helps you win battles - they just wish they had enough soldiers).

Indeed, Clans (character portrayals and players) who are bad at these setting norms often take pride in being bad at it. Clans that are bad at politics are proud that they're bad at politics because they're doing something more important. Clans that are less honorable are proud that they don't care about honor, because something else they do is more important.

Lion has always been my least favorite clan, but as my excitement for the game started returning I began to wonder why.

When I came back to the game in Ivory, the only clans I never played were Dragon and Unicorn. I dislike neither and mostly just wasn't ever interested in their decks mechanically or thematically despite liking the clans themselves.

I was always interested in the Lion mechanically and enjoyed building military and honor decks with them. I never considered playing competitively but they were a fun diversion from competitive deck tweaking.

Ultimately I think the Lion suffer from misrepresentation in lore and fiction. They are supposedly supremely honorable and connecting directly to their ancestors, but they come across as bullies with a perpetual chip on their shoulder, just waiting to take offense and go to war.

Some of the Lion in fiction are so arrogant that they make the Crane seem humble in comparison.

I think Lion are often portrayed as beasts both on and off the battlefield.

Wouldn't a Matsu bushi crushing an opponent's skull one day and then be quietly taking in a kabuki play the next night be part of the duality of the honorable samurai?

I really hope the new story team does the Lion justice in fiction and flavor text. They're the clan of those still remaining that I think need it the most.

My favorite Lion story is the type where they stick to their guns (daisho?) and do the honorable thing even when the cost to themselves is high.

We don't see it very often, though.

1 minute ago, Kinzen said:

My favorite Lion story is the type where they stick to their guns (daisho?) and do the honorable thing even when the cost to themselves is high.

We don't see it very often, though.

Usually in the fiction we see this as them doing something that looks stupid, like a suicide charge, etc, to maintain their honor. Their death is noble, but pointless.

43 minutes ago, Mirith said:

Usually in the fiction we see this as them doing something that looks stupid, like a suicide charge, etc, to maintain their honor. Their death is noble, but pointless.

Right, whereas I want to see the honorable choice being the right but hard one.

Possibly my favorite Lion moment for the clan as a whole was their various responses to the revelation that Fu Leng was possessing the Emperor.

1) "Well, we swore to serve the Emperor, so . . . we must do our duty and support him."

2) "This is not the legitimate Emperor. Therefore, our duty is to NOT serve him."

3) "Both of those options suck. Time to commit seppuku in protest."

Three different responses, all of them *very* Lion in their own way.

The thing that always irked me about characterization of Lions was the way their traditionalism was presented. It annoyed me because it's almost always presented as a close minded, negative trait that makes them blind to progress and deeply entrenched in the past, with some anti-intellectual tones to it. Which also cements them as a group of brutes, bullies and "jocks" (tendency to cast physically-oriented groups and roles as inferior while idolizing and idealizing intellectual/magical/diplomatic pursuits is also something that happens a lot in tabletop gaming writing - well, less today, but it was A Thing in 90ties- , kind of the "nerds taking revenge on jocks" phenomena) whose only redeemable traits is their ability to turn off thinking and die as ordered.

I find this very meh, mostly because that's not how "traditionalism" works in the cultures game is borrowing from. It doesn't mean never inventing anything new, and abandoning all progressive thought. It means looking into the future while never forgetting about the past - building upon the wisdom of those who came before you. It's not about mindless repetion of the past, but about methodically going forward while keeping spirit of what you were taught in mind, to never lose the true path. That's what Lion should be at it's best - and what we never seen. Instead, it got stereotypized and flanderized into the least positive interpretation, and misrepresentation of what "Honorable" is, all the time.

The worst thing? You can see pieces of the more positive interpretation scattered around the franchise, especially in RPG books. Ideals of Akodo family fit this very well, and their main archetype is that of Chinese Scholar General - well educated, disciplined, humble while still confident, and open minded. Zhuge Liang http://daoofstrategy.blogspot.com/2012/11/zhuge-liang-kong-ming-hidden-dragon-of.html would be definitely a Lion.

However, in practice, it's never about smarts, scholars, or wisdom; it's almost always about charging and being a overzealous bully.

Which reminds me that I hate how Lady Matsu was handled; while she is, technically, one of Three Greatest Swordpeople (along with Mirumoto and Kakita), she is definitely the worst of them - both Kakita and Mirumoto can easily be seen as (martial arts wise) superior to their clan's Kami; Matsu got her ass handled by Akodo. She also get her ass handled by Kakita. In fact, if you think about it, Matsu *never did anything* other than being angry and difficult for no good reason. As someone else here described her, "raving lunatic". I don't think there was any other family-founder who got so much humiliation written into their characters as the world was expanded. It almost looks like her whole purpose was to give an excuse for matriarchal family full of bad stereotype of permanently angry man-women. And while you are supposed to think she was pretty awesome, it's almost like everyone writing about her took potshots at her to "put her in her place".

Oh, btw, funniest thing about Lion Clan? It should be a Tiger Clan. Role that Lions occupy in western imagination, in East Asia is taken by the almighty Tiger who rivals Dragon in power. Lions have much...different role.

No lie, I would be way more interested in the Lion clan if they were the Tiger clan.

2 hours ago, Mirith said:

Usually in the fiction we see this as them doing something that looks stupid, like a suicide charge, etc, to maintain their honor. Their death is noble, but pointless.

You sound like a Scorpion player.

2 hours ago, Mirith said:

Usually in the fiction we see this as them doing something that looks stupid, like a suicide charge, etc, to maintain their honor. Their death is noble, but pointless.

We haven't seen much of that from the Lion Clan lately.

10 hours ago, WHW said:

I find this very meh, mostly because that's not how "traditionalism" works in the cultures game is borrowing from. It doesn't mean never inventing anything new, and abandoning all progressive thought. It means looking into the future while never forgetting about the past - building upon the wisdom of those who came before you. It's not about mindless repetion of the past, but about methodically going forward while keeping spirit of what you were taught in mind, to never lose the true path.

My graduate studies were in folklore (and anthropology, but the folklore's relevant here), where "tradition" is a concept that gets bandied around a lot. My favorite definition of it came, not from an academic source, but (if memory serves) from the composer Gustav Mahler:

Tradition is the preservation of fire, not the worship of ashes.