13 hours ago, Jedi samurai said:

However, historically, each clan has been linked to 1 Ring/Element (Crab - Earth, Crane - Air, Lion - Water, Scorpion - Air, Unicorn - Water. Dragon could be Earth and/or Fire, Phoenix...if you want make them special, Void).

Not really true, and you can tell the moment you look at the individual families. Let's take Dragon for example:
The Mirumoto are all about Fire and Void, thematically, with neither one really playing higher than the other.
The Agasha are all about Fire and Earth, again, with neither one playing higher than the other.
The Kitsuki are Water all the way (dat Perception...)
The Togashi, like the Isawa, could be literally anything.
How does that translate down to "Fire/Earth?" And you can do that for all the families of all the clans, and even if you do that just speaks to their stereotypes, as you can just as easily have outliers.

Kituski are Water/Air, Perception is good, but Awareness as well

And then, they're Fire and Void as well, because they get challenged a lot.

And there's earth, too, because they have a strong willpower.

There have been various theories over time about how the clans match up to Rings, or tenets of Bushido, or tenets of Shourido. None of them were entirely convincing.

3 hours ago, Bayushi Tsubaki said:

Not really true, and you can tell the moment you look at the individual families. Let's take Dragon for example:
The Mirumoto are all about Fire and Void, thematically, with neither one really playing higher than the other.
The Agasha are all about Fire and Earth, again, with neither one playing higher than the other.
The Kitsuki are Water all the way (dat Perception...)
The Togashi, like the Isawa, could be literally anything.
How does that translate down to "Fire/Earth?" And you can do that for all the families of all the clans, and even if you do that just speaks to their stereotypes, as you can just as easily have outliers.

By looking at the clans Shugenja (you know, those people who actually interact with the Kami and the elements).

The good ol' Heresy of the Five Rings insisted that Crab was the clan of Earth, Dragon the clan of Fire, Lion the clan of Water, Phoenix the clan of Void and Scorpion and Crane the clans of Air.

And that Crane had to merge into the Scorpion or the other way around to restore balance. (This was pre-Unicorn).

34 minutes ago, Smobey said:

The good ol' Heresy of the Five Rings insisted that Crab was the clan of Earth, Dragon the clan of Fire, Lion the clan of Water, Phoenix the clan of Void and Scorpion and Crane the clans of Air.

And that Crane had to merge into the Scorpion or the other way around to restore balance. (This was pre-Unicorn).

Note how it's called the Heresy of the Five Rings...

On 2017-04-27 at 4:52 PM, JJ48 said:

I'm wondering if next week's article might mention something about the Rings on the provinces, as I suspect they may figure into conflicts. Something like, once one of your provinces breaks, you can no longer gain the benefits of that Ring (though you could still declare conflicts of the Ring's type)? Or maybe a Ring's benefits are enhanced if you break a province of the same type as the Ring?

This is pure speculation, of course, but given how prominent the Rings are in the LCG, it doesn't seem too much of a stretch to expect the province Rings to affect them somehow. Maybe we'll find out next week when they talk about conflicts!

Any chance that the rings will work a bit like Sensei cards did? You pick one to start with, and it modifies how the rest of your deck & strategy play out? A Crane with Ring of Fire in play goes more aggressive overall than a Ring of Air deck?

I have no idea, honestly...

Hopefully people get into the spirit.

It would be a real shame if it just turned into everyone playing whatever.

The only reason the game survived as long as it did was due to tribalism. It's more dramatic. When your clan wins, you win, when they lose, you lose. You share some bond with people you've never met. The assumptions about character based on clan are really fun. Hate Crane? You're probably a Scorpion. Don't care much about any of the other clans? Probably a Dragon or Phoenix. Think Scorpion and Crane are both babies? Probably a Crab or Unicorn player.

This kind of stuff is what keeps us engaged. It's about characters, perspectives, ideas, etc.

If the narrative, characters, setting, etc. are all lost/sacrificed I don't think it will last very long. It'll be another one of their card games which last a few years and then scrape by until they're quietly cancelled.

5 hours ago, lumia2 said:

Any chance that the rings will work a bit like Sensei cards did? You pick one to start with, and it modifies how the rest of your deck & strategy play out? A Crane with Ring of Fire in play goes more aggressive overall than a Ring of Air deck?

I have no idea, honestly...

I don't think so, to be honest. The only thing we've heard about Rings so far is that the Attacker selects one at the beginning of a conflict to determine what benefit he gets if he wins. We've also seen Ring icons on province cards. From the looks of it, they'll be encouraging all clans to interact with all the Rings (even if it's just to deny your opponent a benefit they could use).

4 hours ago, Tebbo said:

The only reason the game survived as long as it did was due to tribalism. It's more dramatic. When your clan wins, you win, when they lose, you lose. You share some bond with people you've never met. The assumptions about character based on clan are really fun. Hate Crane? You're probably a Scorpion. Don't care much about any of the other clans? Probably a Dragon or Phoenix. Think Scorpion and Crane are both babies? Probably a Crab or Unicorn player.

This is beginning to sound like a great series of jokes!

If your boats are stronger than your castles...you may be a Mantis.

If you can string together any random series of words and get people to view you as wise rather than mad...you may be a Dragon.

If your plots have so many layers that even you are surprised to learn that you're really behind it all...you may be a Scorpion.

If you have so much cavalry that your horses ride into battle on horses...you may be a Unicorn.

If you're a big, golden cat with a long, furry mane around your neck...you may be a lion.

11 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

I don't think so, to be honest. The only thing we've heard about Rings so far is that the Attacker selects one at the beginning of a conflict to determine what benefit he gets if he wins. We've also seen Ring icons on province cards. From the looks of it, they'll be encouraging all clans to interact with all the Rings (even if it's just to deny your opponent a benefit they could use).

This is beginning to sound like a great series of jokes!

If your boats are stronger than your castles...you may be a Mantis.

If you can string together any random series of words and get people to view you as wise rather than mad...you may be a Dragon.

If your plots have so many layers that even you are surprised to learn that you're really behind it all...you may be a Scorpion.

If you have so much cavalry that your horses ride into battle on horses...you may be a Unicorn.

If you're a big, golden cat with a long, furry mane around your neck...you may be a lion.

This should be it's own thread. It's too amazing to be hidden away in here.

16 minutes ago, Wispur said:

This should be it's own thread. It's too amazing to be hidden away in here.

Done and done.

On 4/29/2017 at 2:10 AM, Smobey said:

The good ol' Heresy of the Five Rings insisted that Crab was the clan of Earth, Dragon the clan of Fire, Lion the clan of Water, Phoenix the clan of Void and Scorpion and Crane the clans of Air.

And that Crane had to merge into the Scorpion or the other way around to restore balance. (This was pre-Unicorn).

The Lion live in a landlocked nation without access to any water and are notorious for being rigidly inflexible and stubborn when it comes to traditions and politics.

How exactly are they the "Clan of Water"?

Honestly, they might be a better candidate for a Clan of Fire than the Phoenix are-- except, you know, thematically Phoenix is a firebird and naturally their shugenja are known for throwing fireballs.. but beyond that? Nothing about the Phoenix's methods and personalities is indicative of fire except that in the RPG 'intelligence' was classified under fire. Otherwise the Phoenix being a peaceful, nonaggressive clan willing to change tactics on the field and alter their ways with the times is far more indicative of "Water".

Similarly, one could make an argument that either Crane or Scorpion is the "Clan of Water"... certainly to any extent the Lion could be said to be.

Phoenix are the clan of the Phoenix.

9 hours ago, Tebbo said:

Hopefully people get into the spirit.

It would be a real shame if it just turned into everyone playing whatever.

The only reason the game survived as long as it did was due to tribalism. It's more dramatic. When your clan wins, you win, when they lose, you lose. You share some bond with people you've never met. The assumptions about character based on clan are really fun. Hate Crane? You're probably a Scorpion. Don't care much about any of the other clans? Probably a Dragon or Phoenix. Think Scorpion and Crane are both babies? Probably a Crab or Unicorn player.

This kind of stuff is what keeps us engaged. It's about characters, perspectives, ideas, etc.

If the narrative, characters, setting, etc. are all lost/sacrificed I don't think it will last very long. It'll be another one of their card games which last a few years and then scrape by until they're quietly cancelled.

All this tribalism reminds me of sports teams, honestly. Only instead of sitting on your couch, watching your favorite team and hoping they'll win, you're actually doing something to contribute to your team's success or defeat. Hopefully the new game will be more like this as well, one of my big gripes with other tabletop games is that story and faction don't seem to matter to most players.

On 4/27/2017 at 1:04 AM, cheapmate said:

There might be a way for mixing factions (alliances?), similiar to banners in AGOT or influence in Netrunner.

Buying cards you might not ever use is just the way LCGs work.

Yeah but those games don't quite have the same clan loyalty or competitive play dynamics that encourage clan loyalty. I'm guessing there will be an influence mechanic.

11 hours ago, Mandalore525 said:

All this tribalism reminds me of sports teams, honestly. Only instead of sitting on your couch, watching your favorite team and hoping they'll win, you're actually doing something to contribute to your team's success or defeat. Hopefully the new game will be more like this as well, one of my big gripes with other tabletop games is that story and faction don't seem to matter to most players.

Oh, I hope it doesn't get as bad as sports teams tend to. Rooting for a team is all well and good, but all too often I see people allow their chosen team to become a defining part of their identity (to the point where they feel legitimately threatened by someone else choosing a different team), which can't possibly be healthy.

I agree with what others have said about needing to maintain interest in the storyline aspect, but that doesn't necessarily mean fanatic devotion to one single clan.

On 4/27/2017 at 2:16 PM, Mirith said:

Yes, but who wants to play Lion? They are a silly clan.

I will be.....and no they are an amazing clan.

As far as clan loyalty goes...I have always considered clan loyalty important to the game, not fanatical clan loyalty...Basically you go to a tournament you represent your clan at least once a kotei season, its just what you do in my mind. However I never begrudge anyone in my playgroup taking something other than their clan. I will usually try to see if we can make a competitive deck though. Play what makes you happy...thats L5R. If someone is giving you crap about being clan loyal or not being clan loyal...they are obviously missing the point of what the game means.

It was Samurai edition, I caught onto a thread on AEG's L5R forum Dragon enlightenment. It was all things deck construction for that archetype. That's were I caught the fever for Dragon. Togashi Satsu was amazing...

Aside from dishonor, you could win how you wanted. For Dragon, you could play all the rings. After a Kotei, you would be mentally exhausted... it was great. VS system was a difficult game. It had nothing on L5R.

1 hour ago, Spoonfunk said:

I will be.....and no they (lion) are an amazing clan...

Awimbawe, Awimbawe, Awimbawe, Awimbawe. In the jungle...

How isn't that silly?

17 hours ago, TheHobgoblyn said:

The Lion live in a landlocked nation without access to any water and are notorious for being rigidly inflexible and stubborn when it comes to traditions and politics.

How exactly are they the "Clan of Water"?

Honestly, they might be a better candidate for a Clan of Fire than the Phoenix are-- except, you know, thematically Phoenix is a firebird and naturally their shugenja are known for throwing fireballs.. but beyond that? Nothing about the Phoenix's methods and personalities is indicative of fire except that in the RPG 'intelligence' was classified under fire. Otherwise the Phoenix being a peaceful, nonaggressive clan willing to change tactics on the field and alter their ways with the times is far more indicative of "Water".

Similarly, one could make an argument that either Crane or Scorpion is the "Clan of Water"... certainly to any extent the Lion could be said to be.

Well, back when I played, playing the Ring of Water involved destroying a terrain and replacing it, then winning the battle. Looking at later versions it's always been about battles and tactical flexibility, which are very much Lion things.

The justification was pretty much tactical flexibility and such, yeah. Plus, the Five Rings Heresy corroborates with the clan's own shugenja: Lion have water, Dragon have fire, Phoenix have void, etc.

18 hours ago, TheHobgoblyn said:

The Lion live in a landlocked nation without access to any water and are notorious for being rigidly inflexible and stubborn when it comes to traditions and politics.

How exactly are they the "Clan of Water"?

You're thinking too literally. The Ring of Water is about movement and adapting to the situation. As a clan respected for not only its military strength but also strategy, then they are attuned to the Ring in a way other clans aren't.

3 hours ago, Spoonfunk said:

I will be.....and no they are an amazing clan.

You are a silly clan! You like cream and will chase laser pointers!

Though to be honest, to me, the Lion to me are the most boring clan, with the least depth to them, as they are basically bullies. If you look at the most militaristic clans in the CCG ((In no order) Lion, Crab, Unicorn, Mantis, Spider), Crab have the whole wall/Shadowlands thing going for them, Unicorn have the whole barbarian thing, Mantis have the whole underdog and pirate thing, Spider have the whole "I'm tainted and living in your empire!" thing. Basically, everyone gets to compare themselves to the Lion and say "See, I got this thing, you don't, what is your excuse?". Even Toturi was more interesting when he wasn't a Lion.

No one else is regularly talking to their dead ancestors about stuff or using trained animals in battle.

To each their own but I think you're being a tad disingenuous.

30 minutes ago, Mirith said:

You are a silly clan! You like cream and will chase laser pointers!

Though to be honest, to me, the Lion to me are the most boring clan, with the least depth to them, as they are basically bullies. If you look at the most militaristic clans in the CCG ((In no order) Lion, Crab, Unicorn, Mantis, Spider), Crab have the whole wall/Shadowlands thing going for them, Unicorn have the whole barbarian thing, Mantis have the whole underdog and pirate thing, Spider have the whole "I'm tainted and living in your empire!" thing. Basically, everyone gets to compare themselves to the Lion and say "See, I got this thing, you don't, what is your excuse?". Even Toturi was more interesting when he wasn't a Lion.

I don't think it's necessarily a problem with the Lion themselves so much as how people tend to portray them.

To me, they seem to suffer in much the same way as Paladins in D&D: you can portray them as interesting characters, but many people instead caricature them as haughty jerks that nobody likes and who go around bullying others.