Hi guys - figured I'd ask the collective wisdom of the forum here. What is the best way to play an Ackbar 5-activation fleet where your only two combat ships are an MC80 superpickle and a Scout Mc30? I've traditionally played Ackbar with Mc80 but lots of TRC90s so feels different to me with only 2 damage-dealers.

I'm wondering:

• How close should both ships deploy to each other? Is this a fleet where the ships should have overlapping fields of fire and move close together?
• How important is it that the MC30 trigger Gunnery Teams as often as possible? E.g. if I am not triggering it more than twice total, does that mean the MC30 has poor positioning and isn't shooting/flakking enough?
• Against fleets with Demolisher or close-range ships -- is the goal of the many GR 75s to block incoming ships from getting too close?

E.g. this sample list from Snipafist on his blog:

Faction: Rebel Alliance
Points: 398/400

Commander: Admiral Ackbar
Assault Objective: Advanced Gunnery
Defense Objective: Fire Lanes
Navigation Objective: Intel Sweep

[ flagship ] MC80 Assault Cruiser (114 points)
- Admiral Ackbar ( 38 points)
- Defiance ( 5 points)
- Walex Blissex ( 5 points)
- Engine Techs ( 8 points)
- Reinforced Blast Doors ( 5 points)
- Electronic Countermeasures ( 7 points)
- X17 Turbolasers ( 6 points)
- Leading Shots ( 4 points)
= 192 total ship cost

MC30c Scout Frigate (69 points)
- Foresight ( 8 points)
- Skilled First Officer ( 1 points)
- Gunnery Team ( 7 points)
- Turbolaser Reroute Circuits ( 7 points)
= 92 total ship cost

GR-75 Medium Transports (18 points)
- Ahsoka Tano ( 2 points)
- Comms Net ( 2 points)
= 22 total ship cost

GR-75 Medium Transports (18 points)
- Comms Net ( 2 points)
= 20 total ship cost

GR-75 Medium Transports (18 points)
- Comms Net ( 2 points)
= 20 total ship cost

2 A-Wing Squadrons ( 22 points)
2 VCX-100 Freighters ( 30 points)

This is good topic. I wanna say, this is also a good list archetype, however, even if you aren't anti-squadron crazy like I am, you might need more squadron cover. Otherwise a list from the "git gud" crowd, even just 90 points of random squadrons will eat your VCX's alive (no use of strategic), and the 134 bombers will take out your MC80 after you get only one attack. Drop 2 Comms Net for Boosted Comms. Either YT1300s or Awings especially the two aces.

Maybe @Snipafist can lend us his wisdom?

3 minutes ago, IronCondor said:

Maybe @Snipafist can lend us his wisdom?

I'm honored, but the deeper intricacies of the Regionals-winning super-pickle+MC30+3 GR75s list would best be left to someone who's flown this kind of fleet regularly. I had my doubts early on but it's definitely performed.

The two VCXs are amazing for objectives, though. And the super pickle is deceptively hard to kill. It's not invincible by any means but it can tank a lot more damage than you'd think, which means opponents tend to under-commit to killing it only to find they wasted a lot of effort (and a ship or two) and the **** thing is still alive at the end of the game.

It has a weakness to squadrons but somehow it's won two Regionals despite that problem. I'd imagine the ships being a very durable MC80, an MC30 with Admonition (I'd change the title on it in your example), and 3 GR75s helps. None of those ships are particularly weak to squadrons so the two combat vessels can tank attacks for a while (especially with some repair token help from the GR75s) as they go after carriers.

Again, I'm curious to hear from someone who's won a Regional (or at least placed well) using it about its inner workings. I can surmise a few things that feel reasonable enough due to my experience against somewhat similar fleets, but the exact workings are something of a mystery to me.

8 minutes ago, Snipafist said:

I'm honored, but the deeper intricacies of the Regionals-winning super-pickle+MC30+3 GR75s list would best be left to someone who's flown this kind of fleet regularly. I had my doubts early on but it's definitely performed.

The two VCXs are amazing for objectives, though. And the super pickle is deceptively hard to kill. It's not invincible by any means but it can tank a lot more damage than you'd think, which means opponents tend to under-commit to killing it only to find they wasted a lot of effort (and a ship or two) and the **** thing is still alive at the end of the game.

It has a weakness to squadrons but somehow it's won two Regionals despite that problem. I'd imagine the ships being a very durable MC80, an MC30 with Admonition (I'd change the title on it in your example), and 3 GR75s helps. None of those ships are particularly weak to squadrons so the two combat vessels can tank attacks for a while (especially with some repair token help from the GR75s) as they go after carriers.

Again, I'm curious to hear from someone who's won a Regional (or at least placed well) using it about its inner workings. I can surmise a few things that feel reasonable enough due to my experience against somewhat similar fleets, but the exact workings are something of a mystery to me.

Wow - I didn't realize this was a consistent Regionals-placing fleet. I too would definitely like to hear from someone on how to fly this list and win.

8 minutes ago, Snipafist said:

I'm honored, but the deeper intricacies of the Regionals-winning super-pickle+MC30+3 GR75s list would best be left to someone who's flown this kind of fleet regularly. I had my doubts early on but it's definitely performed.

The two VCXs are amazing for objectives, though. And the super pickle is deceptively hard to kill. It's not invincible by any means but it can tank a lot more damage than you'd think, which means opponents tend to under-commit to killing it only to find they wasted a lot of effort (and a ship or two) and the **** thing is still alive at the end of the game.

It has a weakness to squadrons but somehow it's won two Regionals despite that problem. I'd imagine the ships being a very durable MC80, an MC30 with Admonition (I'd change the title on it in your example), and 3 GR75s helps. None of those ships are particularly weak to squadrons so the two combat vessels can tank attacks for a while (especially with some repair token help from the GR75s) as they go after carriers.

Again, I'm curious to hear from someone who's won a Regional (or at least placed well) using it about its inner workings. I can surmise a few things that feel reasonable enough due to my experience against somewhat similar fleets, but the exact workings are something of a mystery to me.

Iirc, wasn't the regionals winners (or at least one of them) 2 trcr90s and 2 flotillas? And the anti squadron element on the MC80 was advanced projectors (not ecm) so it could tank a whole mess of squadron attacks IIRC.

Super-pickle has been a big archetype going back to wave-2. I'd tend to agree with Blail about the vulnerability to squadrons, especially at high tier levels of play.

I haven't done the Ackbar super-pickle, but I've played plenty of Rieekan super-pickles. On the whole, I don't think deployment is very complicated. You generally want enough vision to see where the opponent is headed or is likely headed. The pickle goes down last with a direction and flexibility so that it doesn't get trapped in easily. Picking a wing of the opponent's line and rolling down it has worked well for me in the past. I run an Admonition in a Madine list with the other Liberty and spread out tends to work well. You want enough flexibility with the MC30's speed that you can affect multiple areas of play while still being able to support and concentrate fire together with your big ship.

I'm guessing that the archetype will hold up reasonably well at Worlds (someone in the top 10). It simply has a significant number of tools to deal with a lot of sitautions, and someone will have the skill to make it sing to that top 10 finish. Beyond that, I think match-ups throughout the day will say more about whether it finishes top 4 or not.

@Dorrin314

This is my super pickle list clocking in at 399.

Assault Objective: Advanced Gunnery
Defense Objective: Contested Outpost
Navigation Objective: Solar Corona

[ flagship ] MC80 Assault Cruiser (114 points)
- Admiral Ackbar ( 38 points)
- Defiance ( 5 points)
- Damage Control Officer ( 5 points)
- Engine Techs ( 8 points)
- Electronic Countermeasures ( 7 points)
- Reinforced Blast Doors ( 5 points)
- X17 Turbolasers ( 6 points)
- Leading Shots ( 4 points)
= 192 total ship cost

CR90 Corvette A (44 points)
- Jainas Light ( 2 points)
- Intel Officer ( 7 points)
- Turbolaser Reroute Circuits ( 7 points)
= 60 total ship cost

CR90 Corvette A (44 points)
- Intel Officer ( 7 points)
- Turbolaser Reroute Circuits ( 7 points)
= 58 total ship cost

GR-75 Medium Transports (18 points)
- Bright Hope ( 2 points)
- Leia Organa ( 3 points)
- Comms Net ( 2 points)
= 25 total ship cost

2 A-Wing Squadrons ( 22 points)
1 Green Squadron ( 12 points)
2 Z-95 Headhunter Squadrons ( 14 points)
1 Tycho Celchu ( 16 points)

I ran the below list at the London Regional and it did OK (I beat Ginkapo with it!) but landed just outside the top 8. There was never any chance of the MC80 dying (even against 2 ISD's) as with Madine and ET you can arc dodge like a pro, although Ginkapo's bombers did hit it quite hard, but without Ackbar it seemed to lack killing power. The best plan to fight it is just ignore the MC80, unless you have a bomber swarm, and try to kill the other ships.

Fat MC80
Author: Vae

Faction: Rebel Alliance
Points: 393/400

Commander: General Madine

Assault Objective: Advanced Gunnery
Defense Objective: Contested Outpost
Navigation Objective: Solar Corona

[ flagship ] MC80 Assault Cruiser (114 points)
- General Madine ( 30 points)
- Defiance ( 5 points)
- Intel Officer ( 7 points)
- Engine Techs ( 8 points)
- Electronic Countermeasures ( 7 points)
- Reinforced Blast Doors ( 5 points)
- X17 Turbolasers ( 6 points)
- Leading Shots ( 4 points)
= 186 total ship cost

GR-75 Medium Transports (18 points)
- Bright Hope ( 2 points)
- Leia Organa ( 3 points)
- Comms Net ( 2 points)
= 25 total ship cost

GR-75 Medium Transports (18 points)
- Quantum Storm ( 1 points)
- Ahsoka Tano ( 2 points)
- Comms Net ( 2 points)
= 23 total ship cost

CR90 Corvette A (44 points)
- Jainas Light ( 2 points)
- Turbolaser Reroute Circuits ( 7 points)
= 53 total ship cost

CR90 Corvette A (44 points)
- Turbolaser Reroute Circuits ( 7 points)
= 51 total ship cost

2 A-Wing Squadrons ( 22 points)
1 Tycho Celchu ( 16 points)
1 Shara Bey ( 17 points)

Yeah, your best bet is to PM the creator (or to my knowledge - the 1st time this list got famous - I don't know his callsign here). Winner of North Carolina, USA Regional in December. I've actually played him at my house and this list has that "surprise" factor if you aren't used to playing it.

That being said, I think people will probably be reluctant to share intricacies with Worlds next week.

When this list debuted, I think it would have won Worlds. Given the knowledge out there now, I'm sure folks will have better answers.

Deployment advantage is critical with this list I think. The pickle lives by skirting the fight and pounding away with its broadside, a blocker ship getting in front of it and holding it in position can often lead to the pickle getting caught fighting against more of the enemy fleet at blue range than it can handle. At the end of the day it is basically an ISD that can broadside once you factor in the RBD. We all know an ISD can be brought down if you hit it with your whole fleet. Same thing applies here.

3 hours ago, Ginkapo said:

@Dorrin314

Thanks for thinking of me Gink, still having nightmares?

Back in wave 2 I had a lot of luck with an AF with Ackbar, an 80, and 3 TRC90's. A big thing I learned from flying the 80 alongside other ships that have better innate maneuverability is that learning when to engine tech is key. With a nav command on the 80 it can make a 90 degree turn over a total of a speed 3 maneuver. Something interesting that I started doing with deploying the 80 was have it at speed 2 pointed straight up the middle of the board as my initial drop because with a nav turn 1 it could swing to broadside going either direction. But that was more of a gimmick that I would do because I used the 80 as a fire magnet, which wouldn't work so well with the doompickel.

Unfortunately I haven't played much with ET 80's recently so I don't have much advice for the current meta. I will note that 2 christmas treed 80's with projection experts passing shields around in a CC fleet is fun, if not quite optimal.

10 hours ago, geek19 said:

Iirc, wasn't the regionals winners (or at least one of them) 2 trcr90s and 2 flotillas? And the anti squadron element on the MC80 was advanced projectors (not ecm) so it could tank a whole mess of squadron attacks IIRC.

A list very close to this if not exactly like this won the MD and NC Regionals. I think Sean had Admonition instead of Foresight.

Its a good list but its very vulnerable to Rhymer balls and Ramming fleets. Also if you dont practice a lot with it you will lose a lot. I practiced with Sean (the winner of both of those regionals) and he is a really good player and he still practiced for several months to perfect its movement and deployment. It has a lot of moving parts and if you sit down and try to play it in a tournament without testing it against the current meta you will get frustrated with it.

As a slight twist, I've been theorising an Ackbar Defiance Assault Cruiser with Quad Turbolaser Cannons and leading shots. This thing can do some surprising things that X17 can not.

Before factoring in re-rolls and extra dice it has a 55% change of rolling a red crit (off 6 dice), which gives it the ability to pop flotilla at long range. If you don't roll that initial accuracy, then you can add a defiance red dice +/- concentrate fire command for another 2 chances. Alternatively a Defiance Blue dice at long range can allow re-rolls of blanks, if you rolled badly. Or if you managed to roll the accuracy, you can re-roll them if they are not needed (get a bonus dice).

2 Accuracy shut down most medium ships and small ships better then X17 does.

3 Accuracy shut down most large ships.

Combine with TRC90 Jaina's Light with IO to counter ECM brace. Hide the TRC90 on the far side of the MC80. Or if you are really ballsy, put the IO on the MC80.

Overdawg and Q hit the big things that I would point out running this list. I figured I could throw in my thoughts as well since I ran it fairly successfully.

There is a big surprise factor to this list, especially with damage potential of the 30 when playing against this list. If you deploy the 30 at distance 3 and at speed 3 it is very easy to set up two long range side arc shots that are throwing 4/5 dice. I have actually been lucky enough to knock out bcc flotillas in squadron lists doing this. The other good thing about getting in that long range shot is to start softening up larger targets like ISDs and 80 before the 80 in the list opens fire and packs on significant amount of damage.

Overdawg pointed out the moving parts of the list and how it can get complicated or ineffiecent quickly especially when planning whether the 30 or 80 gets what token from which ship and what dial Leia's transport has as that typically is set to be the alternate dial for the 80 if a repair is not necessary that turn . Taking the time to think about your activation order just as important when deciding the transport dials. If you plan for the 30 to get passed a repair or nav token, but then decide that it's in hot water and need to get it out earlier in the turn you may lose that token since the 80 may already have it or is not in range to recieve the token. I gues the big take away is to be very aware of where you will be next turn and how that may effect you token passing.

The flotillas are the key in the list when going up against squadron heavy builds. You have to be willing to put them out there to get the AA shots and help take the squadrons down especially since the 4 squadrons in the list are little more than a road bump for lists that bring 100+ in squadrons. Between both regionals I played against 4 that were 100+ points in squadrons and didn't have too much trouble handling them. I would try to focus on taking out a carrier if possible to cripple the move/shot advantage and if I couldn't then I would go for the squadrons themselves. Having gunnery teams on the 30 is surprisingly helpful with this task as most people don't think that you would be willing to sacrifice a long range attack to hit squadrons with a single blue die attack which adds up quickly when you consider the flotillas black die and the 80s double blue with leading shots.

Personally I found the best way to handle Demo with my list is to let it come in and hit you. Most demo lists out there at the moment are either running 4 or 5 activations as well allowing my 80 to wait to the very end of the round before activating. This forces them to be very careful in how they end their position in relation to the 80. i have had a couple games where their approach angle left them in a spot where I could clip them with the side arc and manage to take them out that activation. If they manage to get completely into the front or rear arc though make use of defiance to start putting damage on them. With Advanced Projectors and walex you can easily deal with a triple tap and only end up losing shields and taking a couple APT crits. In the end though it all comes down to the situation and how it is presented on the board during the game though.

So this fleet does have weaknesses and they are specifically the CR90 ram fleet that had been lurking around. I have been told by the guy that won the Pittsburg area regional that he built it as a counter to my list specifically. This is also one list type that I have not practiced much against also so I wouldn't be able to provide much more input other than good luck. As far as Rhymerballs go, the list tends to do so-so against them it really comes down to positioning and how much the flotillas can contribute in the squadron fight. The best thing to do might be to use the a-wings to jump in and hit Rhymer if possible and use the AA shots from the fleet to kill the squadrons or force them to disengage so they don't give up the points.

Hopefully this provides some good insights on this list. Also, if you haven't practiced against this list and are going to worlds next week I strongly encourage you to do so. I would not be surprised if either a mc30 or cr90 variant of this makes it into the top 4.

Lastly here is the last iteration of this list that I ran if anyone is curious:

400/400

objectives: advanced gunnery, contested outpost, intel sweep

MC80 Assault 193pts

-Ackbar, Walex, Engine Techs, ECMs, Advanced Projectors, XI7s, Defiance, Leading Shots

MC30c Scout 92pts

-SFO,Gunnery Teams, TRCs, Admonition

GR-75 Medium Transports 23pts

-Comms Net, Leia

GR-75 Medium Transports 22pts

-Comms Net, Ahsoka

Gr-75 Medium Transport 20pts

-Comms Net

Squadrons 50pts

A-Wings 2x

YT-1300 1x

VCX-100 1x