The subject says it all. I have never, ever played a true RPG before, nor have any of my friends. We've all played lots of Computer Roleplaying Games (which of course are nothing like the real thing), but the closest thing we've come to playing a tabletop RPG would be Descent (again, though loads of fun, nothing like an actual RPG). I own Descent and we all play it frequently and really love it. I have however recently been looking at true tabletop RPGs and have become very intrigued by them. Since there's no RPG group in my small community (at least that I know of), and my friends already like a lot of things that role playing games have lead to I thought I might give it a whirl as a GM. So the subject of my post pretty much asks what I want to know.

I know it's a very expensive RPG compared with some, but I was thinking that all the tokens, cards, and such might be a help to players who are new to the role playing experience. Especially ones who are transitioning from a boardgaming background. I love reading and absorbing the rules to a new boardgame and am usually chosen by my friends for the task, so it would seem to be a natural progression that I would have to be the GM. Not something I'd mind, although I'd really have no idea where to start.

I guess what I'm asking is, for someone who's totally unexperienced as a GM or a player, and his group of friends who've never played tabletop RPGs before, would WHFRP be a good "starting" game? If not, then what would you suggest? Thanks for any response on this .

Well I think it's a good role playing game, however, it's not much like video games. If you want something similar to video games I suggest 4E dungeons and dragons. If you want something that's more free and open ended and includes a fair amount of social encounters I recommend this game. 4E D&D is going to run much more like descent than this game, despite the similar dice mechanic that this game and descent use. If you want to just fight monsters I recommend 4E, if you want to play a character and experience their struggles I recommend this.

IMO WFRP3e is not a good first time RPG*, especially from a GM's POV. It has many tools for the GM yet much of the rules and guidelines on their use are vague or uncertain. It puts a lot of pressure on the GM to make good and cosnsistent calls. That is not a bad thing in and of itself but for a new GM it adds a lot of pressure.

*It is however a pretty good RPG

I think it depends on your play style. If you're quick on your feet and can tell a good story, the rules' flexibility won't be a problem for youin fact, it'll be a godsend. If, on the other hand, you want lots of easy-to-create combat with inflexible rules that allow the players to see in black and white whether they've 'won,' then there are probably other sets that would be better.

Besides video games, this is my first RPG, so here is my take,

It took me only a wek to read everything and i was able to wrap my head around most of it, i might go back and read individual pages just to clear up. I found that it is actually easy and i was able to explain to another person how to GM and it was there first time to, i was able to explain some of the useful toos and stuff. There were a few times when we thought thre was quite a bit to handle but it only needed a flip into the rulebook and maybe some quick thinking by the GM.

Overall i personally find it a good starting one, the coreset covers the basics and holds a wide array of options for scenarios and stuff. A lot of people say that it is tougher on the GM but i find that if the players do there part and do not rely one the GM it actually seemed pretty light on the GM side.

The Tomb of adventures, one of the rule books I found great when i read through, it explained the basics gives tip on how to GM and gives an easy way to structure everything.

In short, the rules are not to heavy for a person just getting into the roleplaying genre, and there is not to much stuff if you think of it logically.

Hope this helps. =)

Thanks for the interesting replies and varied perspectives. I can see the points of what people have said, how it's lack of structure could be both helpful or overwhelming for a new GMplayers. Though I am something of a "rules lawyer" and therefore might be inclined to get something a bit more structured, part of what attracted me to RPGs in general and WFRP3e in the first place is the open-endness. The ability to just go where imagination takes you and focus more on the story than necessarily the "game" was something I thought my group and I might like as a change of pace from the more rigorous, structured experience of a traditional board game.

I think what we're looking for is something different from what we've experienced with video games or games like descent. Namely, more focus on the characters, the story, and the ability to just do whatever your imagination can dream up. I appreciate the replies from everyone with their opinions, if anyone else has any more I'd love to hear them. I'm also interested in hearing from people who don't think WFRP3e is a good first time RPG, on what they think would be. Thanks for the advice.

Llanwyre said:

That's a big ask for a first time GM tackling the idea of roleplaying for the first time.

I think Warhammer is neither better or worse than other systems as a first time RPG. Some parts of it (the simple/quick dice mechanic and how to add challenges to the die rolls) is excellent for a first time GM, but other parts of the system are a bit tricky and can take some thinking to get right. But I think that is true for all RPG's. The heavy use of cards/tokens and so on in WHFRP is probably something that will make a transition from board games a lot easier (although I'm not 100% that they really make the system easier to understand).

I would not really recommend WHFRP as a starting RPG for someone who isn't even familiar with advanced boardgames (advanced as in having an actual rule book rather than a sheet), the game is quite rules heavy. But by putting lots of them on cards the actual playing can get very smooth. I think the sytem would fit your play group very well, coming from board games. Just as a counter example, if you had no experience with board games at all (of course, you wouldnt even be posting on the FFG forums in that case) I would recommend a storyfocused but light-on-rules RPG like Mouse Guard.

An open world with endless possibilities, focusing on storytelling and so on are strong points for RPGs, but it also means that you will inevitably enter into situations not described by the rules. In these situations the GM need to step in and make a rule interpretation, this is something you learn how to do over time, don't be afraid to get it wrong the first couple of times (all GMs have been there). Remember the fundamental rules of roleplaying:
1. The GM is always right
2. If the GM is wrong see 1.

This might not apply to games like DnD 4e with extremely heavy focus on balance and tactical combat, but for WHFRP it very much applies in my opinion. The important thing is that you're having fun, start off with some basic simple adventures (the ones you get from FFG are probably good for starters). You may want to wait for a couple of sessions before giving your players complete freedom in the game world, really open-ended adventures can be quite challenging to be GM for.

It's definitely NOT a good game for a first-time GM. There's too much responsibility on the GM's shoulders and too many judgement call interactions in the rules.

DnD4 is more suited to rules-lawyering approach, while still not being all that rules-heavy (though it's not light either, by any stretch). It would also make use of your Descent maps and miniatures right away.

Hi,

For what its worth i would say that it is an excellent game. The following may sound odd however because of the way the books and the cards it seems easier for the players to grasp. The reason for this is that after character creation all information is in front of them. As for the dm the books are a little confusing so i would down load all the help i could living index ect.

The investment of what at the begining might seem a lot of cash is not that bad in my view when you consider what you get. If you can get some of your group to contribute towards the cost that would be good and would give them a reason to want to learn and play.

I think its important to understand with the best will in the world that dming is not for everyone you might love it equally it might not be for you. However there is normally somebody who naturally falls into it however in a small group maybe no one will. In a situation like this the investment might have been wasted however if it helps i would buy it from you i am looking for a second set im greedy like that. But my hope would be that you love it i am a long time dm i am always available to ask advice from so feel free i will always try to help.

I would also suggest you really understand the concept of what makes an rpg and how this differs from a board game but honestly the investment in time over the years is so worth it.

So i say go for it once you play a couple of sessions you will begin to find your feet and please ask for advice and good luck.

My take on this is that WFRP3e is a brilliant game for those new to RPGs, both as a GM and player. You should be aware that a few of us who have answered in this thread are debating this issue across a number of forums but the nature of the debate is over timing and application of some of the action cards rather than the structure of the game itself and the tools it gives a GM (well - lol - that is my view of the discussion - no doubt the other folks involved will add their own interpretation).

As background - I have not played RPGs for over 10 years, and only a little then. I bought WFRP for a group of new to RPG players and we have had a great time, with very few rules issues and lots of great ideas and systems in the game to make our playing easier (from the dice, through progress tracks, suggested plot and session structures to the action and location cards and tokens).

We used some of the rules references sheets from Boardgame Geek and have never had to look up the actual rules once during a session. We have used a few different tokens to track things to make them stand out visually (yes, we ADDED tokens to a game with loads of fiddly bits). We use the wound and endurance tokens from Runebound to track wounds and recharge (using the wound cards only for the crits). We use glass beads from Magic: the Gathering for fortune points (they really look the part).

There are a few areas where the game could be improved - but having recently played 4th edition D&D (another pretty good game for newcomers) I feel WFRP stacks up nicely.

Skywalker said:

Under most circumstances, I agree! Still, it depends on what other RP-applicable experience you have. Someone may never have GMed, but s/he might have LARPed, run a 200+ member RP guild on an MMO, or been an actor at Second City. Any of those, for instance, would put you in a decent position to GM this game whether you've played tabletops before or not.

I think if the GM knows rules the "it's in front of you" nature of most PC stuff is friendly to 1st timers as is the "well that sounds reasonable and fun, sure try it, we don't need to look up rule for it" aspect.

However I agree that the game's amorphous nature on the GM side of things puts quite a bit of weight on the GM's shoulders (in addition to the "dance monkey dance, entertain the crowd" aspect of GMing generally). The lack of a variety of quality published scenarios also puts pressure on the GM.

That said, a GM comfortable "improv"ing with players understanding of "I'm learning this too" could pull it off and the game is friendlier to that kind of GM than something like D&D 4e with grids and lots of rules. There's probably enough similarity to online games etc. to transition to understanding the broader range of options and alternatives facing players/characters in an RPG.

I do like the game and think with proper support and fleshing out of those fuzzy bits, it kicks D&D 4e's proverbial (I say that as someone running a 4e game since the edition was published).

If using Warhammer, I suggest in particular to use the Tome of Adventure stuff about hooks, use the narrative flexibility they have in describing dice effects (turn fluff that is generated spontaneously at table into real plot stuff), to make sure it's not just players showing up to be told the GM's story.

If you like the idea of RPG's but haven't settled on one, there are other options with lower price points than either D&D core rule set or Warhammer. Boards like rpgnet and story games can give advice in terms of the group's interest.

Rob

Well here is my 2 cents worth.

I think the game is pretty good for beginning players, now I'v been playing RPG's for a long time, grumpy old man that I am, but I recently started a group because my significant other wanted to try it and I made a game for her and 3 of her friends, none of them having played this type of game before, all of them however well versed in tabletop or online gaming. They got into the spirit of it really quickly and understood the rules in a few hours of play. From a GM perspective, well it almost plays itself and lends itself well if you like me ad lib a lot, now I'v always been a very fast and loose GM so the system suites me.

Don't do D&D its bad for you, should come with a warning on the books it should, like cigarets and alcohol.

Personally I think WFRP is a very good 1st time rpg. The best point of this is the fact that once you get the core rules down it's all play time. No looking up books all the time, all the info is in front of you. It really is an easy game, I don't understand why so many people on here is saying it's so hard for the GM. All you need is an imagination and knowledge of the core mechanic (which once you get used to it, it's extremely easy) and you are all set. You literally play the whole time without 5-10 minute rule lookups on every single thing that you do.

As far as these suggestions of saying D&D 4th is a great beginer game is laughable. I totally disagree with that. You are going to be drawing maps all day. Every encounter you run will have to be drawn out on a grid or set up. Combat is nothing but Battle Chess on a board. Wanna "wing" a surprise spur of the moment encounter? Well have the players wait around while you draw out the whole scene. Going from computer games to D&D 4th is defenitely a step backwards. D&D is a computer game on paper. If you want a roleplaying experience..try WFRP.

Thanks for all the very helpful and informative replies. You all have definitely given me something to think about in regards to WFRP3e and role playing games in general. I can see the validity of points that D&D 4e would make use of my descent minismaps and that the added structure could really help me out as a new GM. But I do like the look of Warhammer for our first RPG for many of the reasons listed here. I'm sure it largely depends on the people involved and either one could work well. Thanks a lot for all the adviceinformation, if I do decide to go with Warhammer, I'm sure I'll be back for more advice on being a GM and running our first game. Thanks again guys.

>And

Warhammer will be cheaper for you in the long run over 4th D&D, 4th needs lots of minis and boards both of which can be hard to get.

if price means anything

Lucas Adorn said:

Not to get a D&D4e v WFRP3e argument, but how much one spends on either RPG is like asking how long is a piece of string. Both RPGs have a similar buy in to get everything needed to play. However, I have seen 4e run with no minis or mini alternatives like candy, dice, counters or paper. There is no fundamental difference except to the extent that you set you own requirements.

I still felt like I was getting more value out of the wfrp box than the 4E player's/monters/DM books. The stand up figures work just as well as minis and you get one for every career plus a decent amount of monsters. The cards for all actions are included as well, not sold at 10$ per class per rulebook and they look great with the pictures. So with action cards, dices, stand ups, character sheets and character boxes included I really feel like they packaged everything that was needed to play smoothly.

And being able to DM this game is more about being able to learn systems easily then actual DM experience. I know people who have been DM for years and they still struggle with game rules. If you think you understand how to assemble dice pools in most any situation that's all you need to know, really.

Firgus said:

You are entitled to feel that way. Everyone values things differently and I can see how someone would come to the conclusion you reach.

http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp?efid=149&efcid=3&efidt=269220

Im in a similar situation to you, and found the advice i got on here great

WFRP3RD will be my first, and hopefully will arrive tomorrow, although now im thinking of getting the dark heresy core rulebook, if nothing else just to have a read over.

Best of luck mate.

Magnus the Pious said:

In 4E, You can take a battlemap and draw out the encounters ahead of time, even a suprise encounter is easily drawn in 5 minutes using a wet erase marker and battlemap. As far a cheap goes, simply get a subscription to Dungeons and Dragons Insider. For 7 bucks a month you get all the rules from all the books, a character builder, a monster builder, and a rules compendium that frankly organizes rules about 1000 times better than this game. It's WAY WAY cheaper if done right. It would take more than a year before you paid more for DDI than just the core box set for this game. As far as prep time goes, it's way shorter than this game. I can have a game of 4E up an running in no time. With this game it's a hour process just to set up, let alone prepping a store. I would even go so far as to say the combat experience is amazing compared to most systems out on the market.

I'm not trying to pimp it, as much as I'm saying that there are many good things about it.

However, I do agree that this game has more the "complete package" as far as a roleplaying experience, especially if you are into running more story plot center adventures as oppossed to hack/slash/loot. It takes longer to prepare, it is more expensive, but it provides a deep rich story.

Well thanks all for the very helpful, and informative replies. After reading this and the other post Kairous linked, I too have decided to take the plunge and buy Warhammer. I think that it will make for a good experience for my group, and can't wait to get into it with them. I think it should have just enough structure for me as a new GM and my new players, but enough freedom that we won't be looking up rules or get bogged down in detail. Still I'm sure I'll be back here to this forum or in the Gamemaster's forum for advice on GMing, what adventure to use for the first one (I'm assuming the pre-made one in the book?), and any other tips people would like to share for me or my group . Thanks again for all the advice guys, my group and I are very much looking forward to entering the world of Warhammer!

Kartigan said:

Welcome aboard - the more the merrier. Look forward to hearing about your experiences (and any questions you may have).

Sinister said:

@ SKywalker: point taken. I play Pathfinder without minis.

and on a similar line: saying that its easier to prepare a 4th D&D adventure compared to 3rd WH is like saying 4th is a combat RP and 3rd is a story RP. No matter what system you use it will take the same amount of time to come up with a good story and plot line and its really based on the individual doing the work. I'm hoping for all the 4th edition groups that their stories are just as good as the ones produced for 3rd WH. it would be a waste of time otherwise and easier to play a computer game.

The really big difference between 4th and 3rd IMO is the setting they are tuned towards. Where 4th is really High Fantasy with lots magic items and healing potions lying around in crates and barrels on street corners and several planes of existence, 3rd is more low fantasy where magic items are truly rare and special with their own history, and a more local feel. I guess you could say that 4th is grandiose and 3rd is leaning towards DArk Age realism except that all the folktales (and the monsters in them) are true.

People like different styles of play.

@ Magnus: If you play with minis you can prepare generic ambush encounters ahead of session to save time which I would recommend as even 5 mins can seem a long time if your group is just about to get into some action and you want to keep the tension high.

.

@ Kartigan: Welcome