It's AMAZINGLY easier to make adventures in 4E. This has more to do with the tools that are accessible for the system. But using just the monster builder and the compendium I have access to everything where in 3x I had to pull the info from dozens of books. It's a complete search, drag and drop, play, compared to hunting for things scattered in all the 3x books.

Yes but the monster builder and the compendium does not build you a story.

I can build monster encounters just as fast in 3rd WFRPG. I just need to turn to the page in ToA and wing it from there. takes about 5 secs

I left 4E D&D for WFRP2. I've been playing nearly exclusively D&D since 1981 and I DM 90% of the time. A smattering of Cthulhu and other 'lesser known' game systems were always around. Just to stay on topic, I do not feel WFRP3 is a good first time RPG for GM's but is for players (and thats why the books of course were written in the exact opposite format. Of course, now that they're for sale as PDF's perhaps that has changed

Anyways, here are some universal laws (set down by Hammurabi) as to why D&D 4e blows and WFRP rocks.

After a year of DMING and PLAYING 4e, the reasons I left it were multifold:

1. As a DM, 4e is a f'n nightmare of accounting math every round after round after round after round of tracking modifiers for multiple opponents at multiple levels. It was simply absolutely NO FUN to DM, but would probably have worked well as a computer game 10 years ago.
2. As a player, the game tells you what you did, not the other way around. After you've played a while, it works just fine and you can adapt. I like the fact that the players have more "special abilities," but the leveling of special abilities I thought was a primitive de-evoluation of the game.
3. The power creep is simply astounding. You start EPIC and play into GODHOOD by level 3..nevermind where it goes from there.
4. The dependence on power, magic items, and magic spells to solve every problem you have instead of your head was mind-numbing. This had started in 3rd edition and is worse now.
5. The promotion of thinking that you need 8 bazillion races and class combo's to come up with an original character concept demonstrates how little you're expected to think about character background.
6. The good things: "meaningless combat adventures are easy to prep for a DM," game balance, diversity of thought/pseudo-genericity, the micky-mouse ears, tradition, good writers, online support by selling you ads and the occasional combat adventure you couldn't have randomly rolled up, etc. just wasn't enough to hold me there. I let my insider lapse last month..after being with DUNGEON since issue #1...there was nothing..not even a whimper of regret that the relationship with D&D-addiction was OVER. I was disillusioned to the fact of my mindless head-nodding like the zombies of Dawn of the Dead who go to the Mall "because it's what they've always done."

<NO GAME IS EXEMPT FROM ANY OF THE 5 REASONS ABOVE, ESPECIALLY NOT ANY EDITION OF WFRP>

The reasons I moved to WFRP2e:

1. It was the next most popular FRP game around. If you don't have players, you don't have a game.
2. It has a lot of backstory and material to work with. I don't have to go out and buy a bunch of new world supplements regardless of edition.
3. It had/ a lot of scenarios, from the scenario contests, to supplement official material
4. It had/ a relatively simple system for both the GM and the players.

The reasons I moved to WFRP3:

1. New games bring new excitement
2. WFRP2e is dead and it's player base has been dwindling since GW DUMPED IT years ago. I know some people are still in denial..and I'm not here to argue with those people about how in-denial they are, but that's just the facts.
3. 'cause it's sterile and I like the taste.~Dodgeball quote
4. There are few known WFRP3 authors of stuff. I like to make stuff and scenarios. 2e's been done to death and for a lashworm's sake, people haven't even moved on from updating 1e scenarios
5. There's room for house-rules and the ability to play outside the WARHAMMER WORLD. I like house rules. I like running systems in diametrically opposed worlds (like playing 3E D&D in HYBORIA..people said you couldn't do it..I enjoyed proving the mindless mall-zombies wrong). Speaking of, I'll probably run a high magic version of WFRP3 in ALTDORF.
6. Disease, bawds and drinking is gone from the system. Who better than me to resurrect that than me as the GM?

jh

Emirikol said:

I like it.

Not knocking anyone who likes D&D 4e. It just disappointed/p'd me off as a DM, so I dropped it. When we had other players try to DM it, they looked at me like "will you DM again Jay..this sucks to DM." My answer has been the resounding "hell no." When 4.5 comes out and they get rid of some of the annoying core elements, perhaps I'll try it again.

Like WFRP3e, D&D4e has a lot of new elements that need to be playtested and improved upon before it can be a considered an evolved game.

jh

Warhammer 3 is an excellent RPG for first timer because :

1) it's a beautiful and attractive game, as FFG is used to.

2) everything is written on cards, the learning curve is really soft.

3) the game is fast and the GM isn't as busy with rules as in others more complex RPG. He may help new players.

4) the party is a real team. In Game the different characters will surely help themselves.

5) I see here a lot of first timers attracted or curious, coming from FFG's boards games or MMO.

Lucas Adorn said:

Lol - of course that's 1/1000th the available monsters of DnD you are dealing with.

Emirikol said:

Having played a variety of systems as well I can tell you that I find running 4E to be a breeze. That's not to say I don't use tracking markers on the minis, but once those are added, the game "status" conditions don't have to be remembered, they are just dealt with and removed.

I do enjoy GMing warhammer more, because I find 4E a bit like being on "autopilot", it seems to naturally just run itself, where there isn't as much for the GM to do. This game allows more improv at key moments, which I appreciate.

Kartigan said:

Yes it is a good first time RPG.

You may run the adventure I mastered to introduce the game to my player. Pre-generated characters with 3 talents and 2 actions cards. I suggest where you can give them and explain their basic and advanced actions cards thourgh the adventure...

http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp?efid=165&efcid=3&efidt=278135

Kartigan said:

By the way Amazon.com has the core set for a pretty good price. $62 down from $99 I think(?).

Having played everything from original Chainmail to 4e to GURPS to Shadowrun etc... I'm looking forward to receiving this box in the mail. It seems as though these folks have really tried to innovate.

You are correct, I got it from amazon for $62.97 or something like that, free shipping. The box arrived two days ago and I'm reading through all the books now. Hopefully I can get a game together in the next few weeks with some friends, I'm really looking forward to trying it out. I think I will try the Demo scenario listed on the site, and then somehow try to link that to an Eye for an Eye so my players can get a feel for the game before jumping into a real adventure.

Kartigan said:

Yep I bought it for the same price, actually even lower because of the Dollar/Euro conversion (I don't know how to say it properly, sorry).... Those saving made me buy the Adventurer toolkit and some protect sleeve at the same time.

Kartigan said:

Ha! I've just replied to your Grimm post, I thought I recognised you from before...

Glad you've decided on WFRP, I think it's the right choice. I think a few of the more pertinent points made by people here is that you'll almost certainly make mistakes with the game both due to the game being a bit different and the rule books somewhat poor layout BUT the game is much more forgiving to the GM making mistakes than some other RPGs and as long as your group go with the "we are all learning this together" concept, and you give it a fair chance, you'll be fine.

Hope you have fun!

pumpkin said:

I agree with pumpkin

Sinister said:

Frankly I don't care for 90% of the monsters included with D&D. They're just silly. Most of them a combination of other combined creatures, like Centisaurussharktitan (sea version).

Personally I mostly use player character races as adversaries as I find it more interesting to use intelligent enemies. That does not mean I won't throw the occasional monster at them but I always have to explain to myself first what reason that monster has to be where it is and whats its motive for attacking the PC's. I hate monsters that has no place in the ecology system and were made by a 'wizard experiment gone wrong' and now there's one in every dark dungeon. But thats just me. I like for things to make sense in their own way even though its fantasy and everything is magic.

I think they included the most important in ToA and we know there's a 'monster manual' on the way so...Anyway if I want a vampire or a necromancer (and I do) I make the stats and abilities myself. Everyone knows what vampires and necromancers are about so its not too hard to come up some rules that fit and IMExperience if you describe them really well players won't think about what stats they are up against, they will remember the things he said and did.

Lucas, you bring up an interesting point. I think some people prefer a high fantasy where there are lots of strange creatures and low fantasy where it's very grounded in attempted realism.

Yes quite right. I think thats really the biggest difference between D&D and this RPG.

Lucas Adorn said:

Couldn't agree more. There were 3 things that really caught me back in -89 when I found WFRPG:

1) The monsters were often from our own mythology were there were monsters and humans were often the preferred enemy.

2) Low key magic. Compared to how we played D&D where every peasant had some magic sword, magic items are rare and are something to really take care of if you get hold of it (and 9/10 chances are that it is evil

3) The rules were liberating. I used to play with this guy who would quote rules for every occasion: "But the rules say that I should do these 4 tests to see if I handle this social situation and decide correctly. " The RP-part was out the window.

zarkzervo said:

That is also why I love Conan setting so much. (not the rules just the setting). To me Conan is the epiphany of the 'adventurer race' and the setting supports it. magic is always mistrusted and rarely 'good' as is magical items. He gets by by using his cunning and muscles. I love that setting at least as much as warhammer. The really cool thing is also the descriptions of some of the hellish daemons that he encounters, which often turn out to be apemen/gorillas or something that we as modern people would call ordinary. But because of the nice descriptions (often seen from a different aspect or with the eye of the unknowing) it is all off sudden a frightening monster. With the right description you can even make lowly goblins seem frightening adversaries. Its the details that count