10 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

Small Note:

He Never Did.

He mired it in the courts, which, ironically, is where we are now with it... Mired with no actual guidance either way

Of course you pick the procedural meaning of legal instead of the practical one where no penalty or conviction equals legal.

Just now, FourDogsInaHorseSuit said:

Of course you pick the procedural meaning of legal instead of the practical one where no penalty or conviction equals legal.

Aaah! The 11th Commandment Defense!

These threads always degenerate to debating on when you can add a ship and howcards apply to it. I mean I have seen these conversations ALOT.

On 4/26/2017 at 10:31 AM, Drasnighta said:

You can't take a Ship Card if its affilation is different to yours.

- The question is, "Is that when I take it, or is that at the end of the list build?"

If the title really does allow the Rebels to take the ship, that kind of answers the question though. If that's actually what the card does, then in order for it to do anything list building has to boil down to "if it's legal when you say it's done, then you're good."

Would Phoenix Home be relevant here? I suppose that's different because you can add the Pelta, then Phoenix Home, then the extra crew. But I do find it hard to imagine that you couldn't just add both ship and title to your list, if (if) that title does allow Rebels to field the Quasar.

Obviously everything hinges on the idea that the title actually does that. If it doesn't, then it's irrelevant anyway. If it does, then that basically confirms that your list can be whatever as long as it's legal when you present it. Outside of that it would only matter for houserules (which can be whatever) or a future campaign of some kind, which would presumably spell out how you go about fielding stolen ships or feature ship cards to represent them.

10 hours ago, FourDogsInaHorseSuit said:

I also believe that if there is an order to fleet building you would follow the book paragraph by paragraph in which case faction rules come later than upgrade rules, so an upgrade could change the faction of the ship just like an upgrade can add or remove icons.

Not necessarily. You must follow the order when that order is explicitly pointed with numbers. Fleet building could still being a procedure and it wouldn't make the rules that say what you can do and what you cannot part of that procedure.

Squadron activation has its own procedure. You can see in the RRG some bullets but that bullets are not the procedure. The procedure is described in one of them (actually two of them depending on the how you activate it). If you apply your logic pointed above, when you have to check if you can activate or not, you already activated cause checking the activation slider ks the last thing you would do when it must be the first.

On 4/26/2017 at 9:11 AM, Green Knight said:

Maybe this has been asked before...but here goes: is it conceivable that the face-down upgrade card (the only one between the 2 expansions in wave 6) could actually ba a Title that lets the Quasar join the Rebel side?

It would be unprecedented, but FFG likes to add new Stuff with every wave, so that's not a disqualification (also: Sabine's TIE from X-wing). Also, the Quasar is actually used by both sides ON SCREEN, which is different AFAIK from other ships. So if ever there was to be a dual-faction ship, this would be it, no?

I feel compelled to point out that one of the new X-Wing ships can be fielded as two of their three factions out of the box.

I'm just a little concerned that Rebels could get another ship option while Imperials are left behind.

Dear FFG: Imperials are already one ship less than Rebels. We'd love some extra diversity in our options, even if they are all triangular.

true.

But the Empire has the ISD. And Demo.

They don't need more options.

Ragtag bands of "freedom fighters" do

Not sure why someone point to this to support the rebel quasar title. It does clearly the opposite. If FFG choose to make a rebel quasar it is more probable to do it through a new ship card, maybe unique, not a title.

I don't get all the debate. If FFG wants to make Rebel QF a thing they will adjust the rules as needed anyway?

The real question is: Do we want cross-faction ships at all? I know I don't for tournament play. The result is that the Rebels get yet another ship option, they have more than the Empire already. You essentially make the QF a Rebel unique ship with slightly higher cost. If you start with the one ship, why not do it for all? Because only the one was on Lothal-TV and it is entirely inconceivable that the Rebel cell in Dantooine could have captured a VSD?

What would that mean for fleet diversity?

On the other hand, I absolutely hope for boarding and capturing action as part of the next campaign. Capturing a target ship is a great special objective, and in a campaign you can easily get to keep the ship without disrupting the "official" game.

Edit: That's what Capture the VIP should have been like: Get that Rieekaan off his lifeboat and keep him captive until liberated!

3 hours ago, ovinomanc3r said:

Not necessarily. You must follow the order when that order is explicitly pointed with numbers. Fleet building could still being a procedure and it wouldn't make the rules that say what you can do and what you cannot part of that procedure.

Squadron activation has its own procedure. You can see in the RRG some bullets but that bullets are not the procedure. The procedure is described in one of them (actually two of them depending on the how you activate it). If you apply your logic pointed above, when you have to check if you can activate or not, you already activated cause checking the activation slider ks the last thing you would do when it must be the first.

Ok but there are no numbers to follow. That's the whole point: The assumed premise that list building is procedural, and the given premise that that procedure is not included in the books. Therefore, the assumed procedure would be to follow the text as it appears.

Well, regardless, I put mine on pre-order yesterday from my FLGS, as I was picking up a third Gozanti flotilla.

While thematically I would like for there to be a title card that allows it to be cross factional, I must put my loyalty to the Emperor ahead of my desire for theme. I vote the measure down!

(Also, I would prefer to have a title card that I can use.)

Point of fact, Tydirium has yet to be depicted in X-wing, yet it has more screen-time than ST-321. It's been about three years since that expansion was released.

I wouldn't hold your breath for cross-faction ships. They seem to be a novelty, rather than a precedent.

6 hours ago, ovinomanc3r said:

Not sure why someone point to this to support the rebel quasar title. It does clearly the opposite. If FFG choose to make a rebel quasar it is more probable to do it through a new ship card, maybe unique, not a title.

The thing about X-Wing is that X-Wing has issues unique to the way it presents information that prevents is ships from sharing cards. Specifically, the pilot value system needs a unique pilot of the appropriate faction on every ship card and ship base.

Armada does not, the only thing that's important to know is if the ship is considered Rebel or Imperial for certain upgrade purposes.

Also, I was referring to the new Rebel/Scum dual faction ship that is coming out soon.

2 hours ago, thecactusman17 said:

Armada does not, the only thing that's important to know is if the ship is considered Rebel or Imperial for certain upgrade purposes.

Not sure. We need to know if a ship is rebel of imperial for building fleet purpose even if you run it naked. Our ships have their own faction icon.

1 minute ago, ovinomanc3r said:

Not sure. We need to know if a ship is rebel of imperial for building fleet purpose even if you run it naked. Our ships have their own faction icon.

And this means nothing, because when the upgrade card text directs you to do something contrary to the RRG, you follow the upgrade text. If an upgrade card says "this ship is counted as a Rebel ship" then the upgrade card is followed.

If we're going to insist that pre-game choices are so absolute as to prevent any form of change, then we cannot for example use cards like Minister Tua because the logical argument would be that her ability cannot possibly kick in until the start of the game. After upgrade points have already been spent and upgrade cards have been assigned.

10 minutes ago, thecactusman17 said:

And this means nothing, because when the upgrade card text directs you to do something contrary to the RRG, you follow the upgrade text. If an upgrade card says "this ship is counted as a Rebel ship" then the upgrade card is followed.

If we're going to insist that pre-game choices are so absolute as to prevent any form of change, then we cannot for example use cards like Minister Tua because the logical argument would be that her ability cannot possibly kick in until the start of the game. After upgrade points have already been spent and upgrade cards have been assigned.

I don't have a strong choice but I see that:

My fleet cannot have any imperial ship. The imperial icon in the quasar ship card says that the quasar is an imperial ship. If I cannot have the quasar in my fleet I cannot add any upgrade to it to modify anything. Of course it only means something if there is some kind of procedure on fleet building. If the rule that tell me I cannot have rebel ships in my fleet is only checked when I finish it, allowing me to choose whatever as long as at the end whatever I choose cannot be rebel then the title would work easily.

As I said I don't support any position. All I can say is:

- It (the hypothetical title) will depend on how fleet building really works.

- Nothing in the rules says if fleet building follow a process and must accomplish several rules all the time or if it the rules are checked at the end of the fleet building. At least no so clearly that I could see it.

- If FFG want a rebel quasar they will make it possible.

That's all.

2 hours ago, ovinomanc3r said:

I don't have a strong choice but I see that:

My fleet cannot have any imperial ship. The imperial icon in the quasar ship card says that the quasar is an imperial ship. If I cannot have the quasar in my fleet I cannot add any upgrade to it to modify anything. Of course it only means something if there is some kind of procedure on fleet building. If the rule that tell me I cannot have rebel ships in my fleet is only checked when I finish it, allowing me to choose whatever as long as at the end whatever I choose cannot be rebel then the title would work easily.

As I said I don't support any position. All I can say is:

- It (the hypothetical title) will depend on how fleet building really works.

- Nothing in the rules says if fleet building follow a process and must accomplish several rules all the time or if it the rules are checked at the end of the fleet building. At least no so clearly that I could see it.

- If FFG want a rebel quasar they will make it possible.

That's all.

Again, the answer is in cards like Tua that add new options to ships that don't have them. The only way Tua works is if the end result is the only relevant outcome. Otherwise, you'd have to have a finished fleet then purchase or equip another upgrade afterwards. That's not possible outside of Corellian Conflict or similar linked games.

6 minutes ago, thecactusman17 said:

Again, the answer is in cards like Tua that add new options to ships that don't have them. The only way Tua works is if the end result is the only relevant outcome. Otherwise, you'd have to have a finished fleet then purchase or equip another upgrade afterwards. That's not possible outside of Corellian Conflict or similar linked games.

Sorry Cactus, but that's a Poor Example, because Tua is legal in both formats (ends all, and procedurally)

Tua can be procedurally added. Because the whole point of procedurally added is "Check at each step."

I have an Imperial Fleet.
- I take an Imperial Ship. - Faction Matches, it is legal.
- I take an Imperial Crew Member. - Imperial Upgrade to Imperial Ship - Legal.
- Said Imperial Crew Grants the Slot.
- I take upgrade in now legal slot. - Upgrade in Given Slot - Legal.

Whereas

A Title that does so retroactively is not procedurally legal. (It is finally legal, yes, but not procedurally.)

I have a Rebel Fleet.
- I take an Imperial Ship - faction does not match. Illegal choice.
- I take a Title (presumably faction-neutral, because if it is Rebel, it also breaks the Legality)
- The Ship is now Rebel, which is good if you havn't checked until this point, but if you have, it wasn't legal to be there.

Same as, the Title itself is equipped to the ship - the argument for procedure is, you need to have a Ship to equip the title... If you have a Title without a ship, you have the title illegally...

I bet if I made another dual faction Quasar thread it would end up with dras arguing about the above issues.

4 minutes ago, TallGiraffe said:

I bet if I made another dual faction Quasar thread it would end up with dras arguing about the above issues.

If you'd just done it, probably.

I still think FFG would be able to create a dual-faction ship IF THEY WANTED TO.

Color me crazy.

1 hour ago, Green Knight said:

I still think FFG would be able to create a dual-faction ship IF THEY WANTED TO.

Color me crazy.

Probably. But I would also expect that they would drum that up in the initial preview to drive hype, especially considering how few previews we get. Purely circumstantial supposition on my part, but for me another tick against a dual-faction Quasar.

11 minutes ago, GiledPallaeon said:

Probably. But I would also expect that they would drum that up in the initial preview to drive hype, especially considering how few previews we get. Purely circumstantial supposition on my part, but for me another tick against a dual-faction Quasar.

Ergo Armada is dead

QED

-all forum arguments shall henceforth end thus. Thanks.

Perhaps we can call a ceasefire for a month, then come back to this after the Quasar has a full reveal? No-one is going to change their opinion, so all you are doing ins wasting breath and digging your trenches deeper. Better to be patient and wait to see who is right.

This bickering is pointless. Either the title does not have anything to do with letting the Rebels have the Quasar, in which case it doesn't matter because the idea of procedural list building is only relevant to this one specific (hypothetical) upgrade, or it DOES allow the Rebels to use the Quasar in which case list building obviously isn't procedural because the title wouldn't work if it was. As I said before, it only matters if list building is procedural for this one card that may not even exist, and if that card does exist then it answers the question entirely.