Control is going to be about manipulating the conflicts and controlling play, not about preventing players from playing. I get a feeling that turns will take "long" because of the amount of back and forth with lots of brutal interactions.

1 minute ago, Isawa Syd said:

they also emphasis phoenix control. control will take a different form than the ccg, but it will still be control. look at mori kuroi, and we've yet to see the phoenix stronghold. but the in the interview ring control was emphasized

.

Yes, soft control and hard control have a lot more overlap than before too. A control deck who bows out an opponent's field when they have no straighten just effectively killed any no fate characters.

Based on what I'm seeing, "control" in this game seems to be the ability to manipulate the actions players take in a game based around conflict and aggression. Control does not mean the ability to lock down the board so that nothing happens. There will be fights, so control lets you change what those fights are about and how they're fought. It doesn't let you prevent the fights.

Also interesting that it's implied that your honor dial stays were it was when used, until it's used again.

Just now, Ryric said:

Based on what I'm seeing, "control" in this game seems to be the ability to manipulate the actions players take in a game based around conflict and aggression. Control does not mean the ability to lock down the board so that nothing happens. There will be fights, so control lets you change what those fights are about and how they're fought. It doesn't let you prevent the fights.

Also interesting that it's implied that your honor dial stays were it was when used, until it's used again.

well yeah, you gotta come to the party to get cake.

Could send somebody else to steal the cake for you...#scorpion

3 minutes ago, Isawa Tasatu said:

Could send somebody else to steal the cake for you...#scorpion

you can not steal what is freely given, brother...

Holdings were much different in Old5R. They produced gold to buy more holdings and personalities, and were brought into play. There were also fortifications which were a holding type that did attach to the province they were purchased out of to strengthen that province. I'm addition to this, there were regions which attached to the province they came into play.

From what we see here I get the impression that holdings will be treated more like fortifications/regions in Nu5R. The title of the card is to the left similar to the format of the items. I would expect that you place them underneath the province card they are revealed in to further boost that province. If the province is broken I'm guessing you would lose the benefits of the attached holding but that's pure speculation on my part.

I don't think attaching a holding to a province will prevent you from playing future characters from that province but the more holdings you have in the deck, the fewer characters you'll have to protect them and your provinces. Taking a turn it two off to build up holdings and fate could be an easy way to lose a game of your opponent is being aggressive. With the fate mechanic causing your characters to leave play you could also got a scenarios where your are left in a weaker board position and need characters to rebuild but you flip holdings and are left vulnerable.

The mix of holdings and characters was and will continute to be an important balance it seems. As far as what specific Holdings that have been revealed will actually do, it's hard to say until we have all the rules. Clearly this will not be Old5R. Looks rather interesting and a good attempt to clean up some of the redundancies of types of dynasty cards of the past.

Just now, Ishi Tonu said:

Holdings were much different in Old5R. They produced gold to buy more holdings and personalities, and were brought into play. There were also fortifications which were a holding type that did attach to the province they were purchased out of to strengthen that province. I'm addition to this, there were regions which attached to the province they came into play.

From what we see here I get the impression that holdings will be treated more like fortifications/regions in Nu5R. The title of the card is to the left similar to the format of the items. I would expect that you place them underneath the province card they are revealed in to further boost that province. If the province is broken I'm guessing you would lose the benefits of the attached holding but that's pure speculation on my part.

I don't think attaching a holding to a province will prevent you from playing future characters from that province but the more holdings you have in the deck, the fewer characters you'll have to protect them and your provinces. Taking a turn it two off to build up holdings and fate could be an easy way to lose a game of your opponent is being aggressive. With the fate mechanic causing your characters to leave play you could also got a scenarios where your are left in a weaker board position and need characters to rebuild but you flip holdings and are left vulnerable.

The mix of holdings and characters was and will continute to be an important balance it seems. As far as what specific Holdings that have been revealed will actually do, it's hard to say until we have all the rules. Clearly this will not be Old5R. Looks rather interesting and a good attempt to clean up some of the redundancies of types of dynasty cards of the past.

I don't know if you saw the post, but DT did come into the Discord to clarify that holdings do prevent their province from refilling. Before that, I was under the same basic assumptions about them that you have.

Dunno if this has been mentioned before, but since Holdings don't have a Fate cost, who's to say that once they're revealed after being dealt facedown from the Dynasty deck, they just sit there until discarded? They don't have to be purchased or anything.

4 minutes ago, Network57 said:

Dunno if this has been mentioned before, but since Holdings don't have a Fate cost, who's to say that once they're revealed after being dealt facedown from the Dynasty deck, they just sit there until discarded? They don't have to be purchased or anything.

it looks that way. hence the furious activity. but basically it is thought that perhaps holdings are like regions in the old ccg, and perhaps they are permanent (cannot be discarded) but since that would end the game in a negative play experience (if one were to flip 4 holdings first turn, for instance, or flip holdings when you really need personalities) then i feel that isn't the case. to be short, we have no idea, but yeah, it looks that way.

Quote

Players then alternate doing one of the following: play a character card from one of their provinces, trigger an appropriate card ability, or pass. The first player to pass gains one fate, but forfeits the opportunity to play characters from provinces or trigger actions for the remainder of the dynasty phase. The remaining player can continue with these actions until they also pass.

It seems to me that you can do actions in the Dynasty phase so that the Holdings with "Action" in them particularly ones dealing with face down cards would be very powerful. So flipping a holding in a province provides an immediately accessible and "free" ability.

I'm not sure I think this is true, but what if holdings are innately one turn effects...they use up their province and give you special abilities for one turn, then discard during the end of the turn. More like old events than anything else.

3 minutes ago, Frimmel said:

It seems to me that you can do actions in the Dynasty phase so that the Holdings with "Action" in them particularly ones dealing with face down cards would be very powerful. So flipping a holding in a province provides an immediately accessible and "free" ability.

you may be on to something there. perhaps not all 'actions' are relegated to conflicts.

1 minute ago, Isawa Syd said:

you may be on to something there. perhaps not all 'actions' are relegated to conflicts.

Given what seems to be intended as a "churn" of your characters being able to manipulate the dynasty draws into your provinces and knowing what is there will be important. This would also relate to knowing when to pass for that extra fate. That Lion card for example you might be faced with deciding whether knowing what was coming next turn is more important than an extra fate. You'll have to make decisions on what to do in proper order to keep your opponent from beating you to the chase and grabbing that Fate first.

3 minutes ago, Frimmel said:

Given what seems to be intended as a "churn" of your characters being able to manipulate the dynasty draws into your provinces and knowing what is there will be important. This would also relate to knowing when to pass for that extra fate. That Lion card for example you might be faced with deciding whether knowing what was coming next turn is more important than an extra fate. You'll have to make decisions on what to do in proper order to keep your opponent from beating you to the chase and grabbing that Fate first.

And looking at it like that the Dynasty phase is preparing for conflict so completing your preparations first puts "fate" on your side.

Given that it's been stated that holdings block your production that seems unlikely.

So far it seems like the rules will be more simple compared to O5R BUT it doesn't seem like the level strategy any decision making is suffering.

19 minutes ago, Ryric said:

I'm not sure I think this is true, but what if holdings are innately one turn effects...they use up their province and give you special abilities for one turn, then discard during the end of the turn. More like old events than anything else.

I'd rather they just let them stay around until you decide to trash them during the regroup phase.

I'm more concerned with actions and whatever limits the normal header ones have. If there isn't a limit, cards like the City of Lies, Borderlands Fortifications, or Border Rider could be used indefinitely. Borderlands Fortifications alone could simply just rearrange a Crab's entire province board at just about any time.

3 minutes ago, Myrion said:

Given that it's been stated that holdings block your production that seems unlikely.

What are you meaning by "block your production?" It seems to me that holdings will keep you from putting new face down cards from the dynasty deck in the provinces but if that holding allows you to better move cards through the other provinces it could be a good tradeoff. If you play two personalities and then can flip those two new cards and discard one or both for another face down? Are you better or worse off for now having a province that can't get new dynasty cards?

Well if there is a way to easily get rid of them I can see including 6-8 Holdings in a deck for the purpose of using their Action a limited (once-twice) amount of times. Having one of your four Provinces "blocked" doesn't seem that bad if the Holding Action/Ability is powerful enough...

Have they stated if you can play a second copy of a unique character if the first copy has left play due to its fate counters running out? I haven't seen a mention of uniqueness applying to the discard pile, just the home area.

@DailyRich,

I have not seen them mention that either. Based on how they keep describing running out of fate as many things other than death, I am lead to believe you will be able to bring another copy out, though it is pure speculation on my part.

18 minutes ago, C3gorach said:

Well if there is a way to easily get rid of them I can see including 6-8 Holdings in a deck for the purpose of using their Action a limited (once-twice) amount of times. Having one of your four Provinces "blocked" doesn't seem that bad if the Holding Action/Ability is powerful enough...

depends on the deck/clan. Crab, absolutely. Lion - who are susposed to be a swarm style deck..... probably not.

2 minutes ago, Jedi samurai said:

depends on the deck/clan. Crab, absolutely. Lion - who are susposed to be a swarm style deck..... probably not.

Depends on the Holding as well.

29 minutes ago, Jedi samurai said:

depends on the deck/clan. Crab, absolutely. Lion - who are susposed to be a swarm style deck..... probably not.

The Lion holding they showed seems to encourage a Swarm gameplay style by letting you cycle through the remaining holdings faster.
So I guess it just depends on how they design them.

I fully expect some of the initial holdings will be dead weight, and others will be staples in their decks.
I'm guessing the first couple "generations" of them will be pretty hit or miss until they find the right sweet spot.