Yes! One token. Not two.

5 hours ago, Drasnighta said:

"Targeted" isn't defined, but the mechanic is the same. For both RRG and Sloane.

Spend Result.
Choose Target.

That is not true at all.

Targeted is defined, by the rules for Accuracy in an attack. You pick a token, they cannot use it, per Accuracy rolled, up to total of Tokens available. ECM allows you to pick a token to be used, that was just excluded from being used by Accuracy.

You do not spend it, flip it or do anything else other than say, I'll pick X token.

2 minutes ago, TheEasternKing said:

That is not true at all.

Targeted is defined, by the rules for Accuracy in an attack. You pick a token, they cannot use it, per Accuracy rolled, up to total of Tokens available. ECM allows you to pick a token to be used, that was just excluded from being used by Accuracy.

You do not spend it, flip it or do anything else other than say, I'll pick X token.

Really?

◊ Spend Accuracy (ACC) Icons: The attacker can spend one or more of its ACC icons to choose the same number of the defender’s defense tokens. The chosen tokens cannot be spent during this attack.

• Spend: When a die or die icon is spent, remove that die from the attack pool.

Rules seem to say you Spend

Unless of course, you're talking about the defense token , and not the Accuracy Icon.

In which case, we're not even arguing on the same subjects.

3 minutes ago, DiabloAzul said:

Yes! One token. Not two.

I see.

2 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

Really?

◊ Spend Accuracy (ACC) Icons: The attacker can spend one or more of its ACC icons to choose the same number of the defender’s defense tokens. The chosen tokens cannot be spent during this attack.

• Spend: When a die or die icon is spent, remove that die from the attack pool.

Rules seem to say you Spend

No, they say you cannot spend it during the attack.

Not it is spent during the attack, and thus cannot be used subsequently by the defender.

You said "targeting" is not defined, then quote me that Accuracy is spent? I never ever said Accuracy is not spent.

1 minute ago, TheEasternKing said:

That is not true at all.

Targeted is defined, by the rules for Accuracy in an attack. You pick a token, they cannot use it, per Accuracy rolled, up to total of Tokens available. ECM allows you to pick a token to be used, that was just excluded from being used by Accuracy.

You do not spend it, flip it or do anything else other than say, I'll pick X token.

Targeted is not defined. Nowhere the Spend Accuracy Icons says that those defesne yokes are targeted .

All we know is that for resolving both effects we have to spend and choose .

Other this is to distinguish between spend some icon and spend a die with some icon but I don't think there is a difference. I mean there are no ethereal accuracy icons in this game. Even effects that add accuracy icons add them with the die.

5 minutes ago, TheEasternKing said:

No, they say you cannot spend it during the attack.

Not it is spent during the attack, and thus cannot be used subsequently by the defender.

Okay, so you ARE talking about the Defense Token

Right.

So you're arguing a point that's on a different level to what I see the argument is, if that makes sense

The argument that is currently going as I see it, goes like this:

Yes, the attacker spending an ACC icon does nothing but say "You can't spend this one."

ECM states that you can spend a Token that was Targeted by an Accuracy Icon. (Not that is locked down, but is targeted).

Sloan states that you can spend an ACC icon to Spend the Target Defense Token.

The Rules State that one Defense token cannot be Spent Twice in the same attack .

ECM states that you can spend a Token that was targeted by an Accuracy Icon ... It does not specify that the only usage of ECM is to allow you to use a token that was 'locked down' due to an accuracy icon - only that it allows you to spend one that was targeted....

That may allow you to circumvent the "can only spend a token once during an attack" rule, so long as the means you are using involves that token, at one point during that attack, was targeted by an ACC icon.

Is it intent? I don't know. But if you detach yourself from the fact that, so far, ECM has only had a single use , and accept that it may have other uses within the boundaries of its wording - its acceptable.

14 minutes ago, DiabloAzul said:

Yes! One token. Not two.

What does it say in the rules about spending multiple tokens of the same type?

You can spend them, but they have no effect?

So if Sloane is used on a Redirect, how is the other Redirect working? because if the second is useable, so is the first.

What it says is that the defender cannot spend more than one of the same type. But with Sloan, the attacker is spending one Redirect, which means the defender is still free to spend the other one.

The wording for the two spending limits is quite different:

A single token cannot be spent twice by anyone .

Two tokens of the same type cannot be spent by the defender .

6 minutes ago, TheEasternKing said:

What does it say in the rules about spending multiple tokens of the same type?

You can spend them, but they have no effect?

So if Sloane is used on a Redirect, how is the other Redirect working? because if the second is useable, so is the first.

The defender cannot spend more than one defense token of each type per attack.

The defender doesn't spend the redirect the first time. The attacker does.

So the defender can spend a redirect cause he didn't spend a redirect yet.

Of course he cannot spend the same redirect token cause:

A defense token cannot be spent more than once during
an attack

6 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

Okay, so you ARE talking about the Defense Token

Right.

So you're arguing a point that's on a different level to what I see the argument is, if that makes sense

The argument that is currently going as I see it, goes like this:

Yes, the attacker spending an ACC icon does nothing but say "You can't spend this one."

ECM states that you can spend a Token that was Targeted by an Accuracy Icon. (Not that is locked down, but is targeted).

Sloan states that you can spend an ACC icon to Spend the Target Defense Token.

The Rules State that one Defense token cannot be Spent Twice in the same attack .

ECM states that you can spend a Token that was targeted by an Accuracy Icon ... It does not specify that the only usage of ECM is to allow you to use a token that was 'locked down' due to an accuracy icon - only that it allows you to spend one that was targeted....

That may allow you to circumvent the "can only spend a token once during an attack" rule, so long as the means you are using involves that token, at one point during that attack, was targeted by an ACC icon.

Is it intent? I don't know. But if you detach yourself from the fact that, so far, ECM has only had a single use , and accept that it may have other uses within the boundaries of its wording - its acceptable.

I see what you are saying, and while I agree it is theoretically possible that ECM can allow use of that token.

I see Sloane as the effect generator and not the Accuracy die.

2 minutes ago, ovinomanc3r said:

The defender cannot spend more than one defense token of each type per attack.

The defender doesn't spend the redirect the first time. The attacker does.

So the defender can spend the redirect cause he didn't spend a redirect yet.

Ok forget it, not getting into a huge argument on this.

1 minute ago, TheEasternKing said:

Right, thats what it says

But didn't we just all agree Dras included that a Defender cannot spend a Def token that was "spent" by Sloane? or did I miss everyone changing their minds?

We agreed about the same token not about the same type

28 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

Is it intent? I don't know. But if you detach yourself from the fact that, so far, ECM has only had a single use , and accept that it may have other uses within the boundaries of its wording - its acceptable.

This is actually something I was thinking about, before. They could, if they felt like it, make "accuracy effects" similar to "critical effects." The standard accuracy effect is the one we all know and love: defender can't spend the selected defence token. Additional effects could be varied.

Dras, I'll give you "agree to disagree," but I will include the observation that I'm not arguing that "spend" means one thing here, and another thing there. I'm arguing that "spend a die" is not the same as "spend an icon." It might wind up being that way, but right now, they are distinct.

17 minutes ago, JgzMan said:

This is actually something I was thinking about, before. They could, if they felt like it, make "accuracy effects" similar to "critical effects." The standard accuracy effect is the one we all know and love: defender can't spend the selected defence token. Additional effects could be varied.

Dras, I'll give you "agree to disagree," but I will include the observation that I'm not arguing that "spend" means one thing here, and another thing there. I'm arguing that "spend a die" is not the same as "spend an icon." It might wind up being that way, but right now, they are distinct.

It does say in the rulebook that when you're told to spend a die or icon, you spend the die.

Not saying its perfect, but it is certainly more similar than, for example, Spend = Spend and Discard = Discard, and occasionally Spend results in Discard, but is not Equal to Discard...

19 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

It does say in the rulebook that when you're told to spend a die or icon, you spend the die.

Not saying its perfect, but it is certainly more similar than, for example, Spend = Spend and Discard = Discard, and occasionally Spend results in Discard, but is not Equal to Discard...

"When a die or die icon is spent, remove that die from the attack pool."

Not saying you are wrong. Actually I agree with you but I think the exact quote was required.

Unless you talked about another quote I missed.

Does this "spend" mean if an exhausted def token is targeted, that it becomes discarded? As if it was spent twice?

20 minutes ago, Boxtwin said:

Does this "spend" mean if an exhausted def token is targeted, that it becomes discarded? As if it was spent twice?

Yes

That's what scares me about Sloane!

Something has been omitted from this discussion.

When a token is spent, it becomes Exhausted, an exhausted token is flipped from its readied side to its exhausted side.
If an exhausted token is spent, it is discarded.
An exhausted defense token is readied during the status phase.

Sloane allows you to spend an Accuracy result, to spend and exhaust a defense token of your choice.
An Accuracy result allows you to pick a defense token, and the defender cannot use that token.
ECM allows the use of a token targeted by an Accuracy result.

The token is not being targeted, it is being spent and exhausted, and exhausted is a defined state in the rules.

The other factor not being looked at is timing windows.

Attack A (None Sloane)

Declare Target
Roll Attack Dice
Resolve Attack Effects : Accuracy can be spent here.
Spend Defense Tokens : Accuracy effect is in play here, stopping use of targeted Defense token. (which gives a timing and use window for ECM)

Attack B (Sloane)

Declare Target
Roll Attack Dice
Resolve Attack Effects : Accuracy dice spent, to spend and exhaust a defense token ( sequence starts and ends here.)
Spend Defense Tokens : There is no accuracy effect here for the ECM to interact with. What is stopping the use of the Spent token is the rules for Defense tokens, You may not spend a token more than once per attack. That token is exhausted in Resolve Attack Effects, and doesn't become useable until a new attack occurs. Or it gets readied in the status phase and can be used the next round, following the rules that govern the use of Defense tokens.

1 hour ago, TheEasternKing said:

Sloane allows you to spend an Accuracy result, to spend and exhaust a defense token of your choice.
An Accuracy result allows you to pick a defense token, and the defender cannot use that token.
ECM allows the use of a token targeted by an Accuracy result.

The token is not being targeted , it is being spent and exhausted, and exhausted is a defined state in the rules.

1. Not quite precise, just spend what is defined in several places with several effects depending on what is being spent as you pointed about defense tokens.

2. How you define being targeted cause nowhere, no matter if you read Sloane or the RRG, is said a defense token is being targeted.

The only place you will find targeted with and accuracy icon is ECM.

So the question is:

Which process targets a defense token with an accuracy icon?

We know accuracy icons spent during the Spend Accuracy Icons step prevent from using chosen defense tokens.

We know that the purpose of ECM is allowing the defender to spend a targeted token. One purpose is allowing the defender to spend defense tokens chosen during the Spend Accuracy Icons step. It was the only purpose we knew before Sloane but it doesn't mean it was the only one ECM could have.

So we intended since de beginning that targeted defense tokens were chosen defense tokens in order to make ECM works over something. This understanding of targeted would allow to intend that ECM works on chosen defense token by Sloane effect cause the wording is the same.

You now intend that when ECM says targeted defense token it means chosen defense token during the Spend Accuracy Icons step what is, in fact, making the "jump" between targeted and chosen bigger .

IMHO I don't think ECM works on defense tokens chosen by Sloane's effect but not cause they weren't targeted rather than it would be a surreptitious way to counteract the defense toke rule that says: A defense token cannot be spent more than once during an attack . But who knows? Maybe it is a new purpose of ECM.

10 minutes ago, ovinomanc3r said:

1. Not quite precise, just spend what is defined in several places with several effects depending on what is being spent as you pointed about defense tokens.

2. How you define being targeted cause nowhere, no matter if you read Sloane or the RRG, is said a defense token is being targeted.

The only place you will find targeted with and accuracy icon is ECM.

So the question is:

Which process targets a defense token with an accuracy icon?

We know accuracy icons spent during the Spend Accuracy Icons step prevent from using chosen defense tokens.

We know that the purpose of ECM is allowing the defender to spend a targeted token. One purpose is allowing the defender to spend defense tokens chosen during the Spend Accuracy Icons step. It was the only purpose we knew before Sloane but it doesn't mean it was the only one ECM could have.

So we intended since de beginning that targeted defense tokens were chosen defense tokens in order to make ECM works over something. This understanding of targeted would allow to intend that ECM works on chosen defense token by Sloane effect cause the wording is the same.

You now intend that when ECM says targeted defense token it means chosen defense token during the Spend Accuracy Icons step what is, in fact, making the "jump" between targeted and chosen bigger .

IMHO I don't think ECM works on defense tokens chosen by Sloane's effect but not cause they weren't targeted rather than it would be a surreptitious way to counteract the defense toke rule that says: A defense token cannot be spent more than once during an attack . But who knows? Maybe it is a new purpose of ECM.

You're tenuously connecting words, and ignoring all intent in them words.

When a Defense token is spent, it becomes exhausted, which is a clearly defined game state. A token spent, may not be spent again during that attack, that is the rules for Defense tokens, not the rules for an Accuracy result, which say something completely and utterly different.

Does ECM allow the use of a spent token? because by the time you are allowed to use ECM, that token is under the purview of the rules for Defense tokens and nothing else.

2 hours ago, TheEasternKing said:

When a READIED Defense token is spent, it becomes exhausted, which is a clearly defined game state. A token spent, may not be spent again during that attack, that is the rules for Defense tokens, not the rules for an Accuracy result, which say something completely and utterly different.

2 hours ago, TheEasternKing said:

Does ECM allow the use of a spent token?

No. ECM allow the use of a defense token targeted with an accuracy.

Was that defense token targeted with an accuracy result? Yes (I am not going to explain again why this token could be considered targeted) so ECM would allow you to spend a token that otherwise you don't.

The thing is that ECM doesn't care about the reason, it care about its own requisite (being targeted with and accuracy).

I am not trying to defend that ECM could do things it cannot do. I just say that I see the point that allow that reading.

In fact I already posted my position against. And I put my thoughts cause there is a difference between the cost spend an accuracy icon and the step spend an accuracy icon . But I know the base for my position is as weak as the opposite. I defend that when ECM points to a targeted defense token, it does to a defense token chosen during the spend accuracy icons step. Why? Intuition for sure. Maybe cause ECM says accuracy result rather than accuracy icon. I don't know.

At this point I won't argue more. I think the OP question is fair.

Yes we can agree to disagree.

I mean this is largely a question of theory anyway.

Maarak Stele and Tie Phantoms are the only squadrons that can be used by Sloane with 2 dice, and I am struggling to think of a time where 1 accuracy and 1 damage from Stele on a target that can take ECM is going to matter at all what token he picks.

Perhaps a Flotilla with Tua and ECM? struggling to see much opportunity elsewhere for it to matter.

18 hours ago, ovinomanc3r said:

"When a die or die icon is spent, remove that die from the attack pool."

This is WHY he's wrong.