Can ECM allow you to spend a defence token that is targeted by Sloane's effect to defend against any damage remaining in the attack?

Admiral Sloane: "While a friendly squadron without Rogue is attacking, it may spend 1 die with an (Acc) icon to choose and spend 1 of the defender's defense tokens . While attacking a ship, it may also reroll 1 die with a (Crit) icon."

Electronic Countermeasures: "While defending you may exhaust this card to spend 1 defense token that your opponent targeted with an (Acc) result."

Attack (P2 RRG): Spend Accuracy Icons: The attacker can spend one or more of its (ACC) icons to choose the same number of the defender’s defense tokens. The chosen tokens cannot be spent during this attack.

In both the RRG and Sloane's wording, you spend an Accuracy icon to choose defender's defence token(s) to block or spend. Since the language is the same, it would seem that ECMs would allow you to spend a targeted defence token for defence.

This is an edge case because it's only relevant if the attacker is a non-Rogue squadron with two (or more) dice, one of which is a red or blue (possibly only the Phantom at the moment?). In other cases, the result is still that the token is spent, regardless of whether ECM or Sloane's ability is used.

Nope, because an Accuracy is spent to prevent the use of a Def Token, ECM allows the use of a token targeted by an accuracy result.

Sloane allows you to pick and spend a token, once a token has been spent, it cannot be spent again during that attack. Which is nothing to do with accuracy results, it is the rules on the use of def tokens.

Two very different things.

1 hour ago, ManInTheBox said:

Can ECM allow you to spend a defence token that is targeted by Sloane's effect to defend against any damage remaining in the attack?

Admiral Sloane: "While a friendly squadron without Rogue is attacking, it may spend 1 die with an (Acc) icon to choose and spend 1 of the defender's defense tokens . While attacking a ship, it may also reroll 1 die with a (Crit) icon."

Electronic Countermeasures: "While defending you may exhaust this card to spend 1 defense token that your opponent targeted with an (Acc) result."

Attack (P2 RRG): Spend Accuracy Icons: The attacker can spend one or more of its (ACC) icons to choose the same number of the defender’s defense tokens. The chosen tokens cannot be spent during this attack.

In both the RRG and Sloane's wording, you spend an Accuracy icon to choose defender's defence token(s) to block or spend. Since the language is the same, it would seem that ECMs would allow you to spend a targeted defence token for defence.

This is an edge case because it's only relevant if the attacker is a non-Rogue squadron with two (or more) dice, one of which is a red or blue (possibly only the Phantom at the moment?). In other cases, the result is still that the token is spent, regardless of whether ECM or Sloane's ability is used.

I was going to agree with @TheEasternKing but after reading carefully the rules quoted I see your point. It seems that ECM identifies targeted defense token with chosen defense token . If we don't agree with that there is no way ECM could work. If we agree there is a base to do the same with Sloane.

However we should distinguish between the cost of triggering the effect and the effect. In other words we have here the same cost, spend an accuracy , for two different effects: Sloane and Spend Accuracy Icons . I call it Spend Accuracy Icons instead of Blocking Defense Tokens cause it is its exact wording in the Resolve Attack Effects step.

When ECM says targeted with an accuracy icon it means targeted with the Spend Accuracy Icons effect . At least this is what I intend.

So I will agree with the king BUT if @Green Knight say something else he is probably right I am not.

But Sloane's ability is an alternative use of accuracy. Therefor in theory you should be able to use scatter and prevent the alternative effect to trigger, souldn't you?

Think of it like Contain

The Crit Icon on a dice has a basic function
Upgrade cards have unique functions for a Crit result on a dice.
Contain works on the basic function
Contain does not work on Unique functions.

Here we have a basic function for Accuracy, and we have an upgrade card that counters the basic function.
Sloane is not a basic function for Accuracy, and ECM does not work, the Accuracy for Sloane is being used for a unique function.

1 hour ago, Norell said:

But Sloane's ability is an alternative use of accuracy. Therefor in theory you should be able to use scatter and prevent the alternative effect to trigger, souldn't you?

On this point - No.

Because Scatter happens in the "Spend Defense Tokens" step, which is after the Modify Dice effects portion, which is where Spending Accuracy (and indeed, any any attacking dice) happens.

Effectively, you go to "Scatter", and the ACC isn't there to be scattered and cancelled - as it was already spent.

Same reason you can't scatter the Toggling part of Flechette Torpedoes - You Can scatter any remaining damage (if any), but as the symbol and die is spent and removed before you get a chance to cancel it, it goes off.

1 hour ago, Drasnighta said:

On this point - No.

Because Scatter happens in the "Spend Defense Tokens" step, which is after the Modify Dice effects portion, which is where Spending Accuracy (and indeed, any any attacking dice) happens.

Effectively, you go to "Scatter", and the ACC isn't there to be scattered and cancelled - as it was already spent.

Same reason you can't scatter the Toggling part of Flechette Torpedoes - You Can scatter any remaining damage (if any), but as the symbol and die is spent and removed before you get a chance to cancel it, it goes off.

Do you have an opinion on the ECM issue?

Not really.

I mean, I do. But its not a final opinion, as its awaiting a precedence check.

Its not straightforward, essentially. I know, for example, that Upgrade Cards can directly overwrite the rules of the RRG. That goes without question (its one of the Golden Rules, after all)... The question for me is wether you can incidentally do so.

You listed essentially 3 rules in the main post, but you missed one of the pertinent ones:

• A defense token cannot be spent more than once during an attack.

The Rule for ECM was written - directly - to counter the standard use of the ACC result, which results in a "May spend" that removes a "Cannot Spend" in the rulebook.

Now, that is making the assumption that, indeed, the situation is only involving a standard attack and a standard ACC result.

What I need to do now, is basically run a rules-logic check, to see what happens if we allow ECM to, essentially, override the "cannot spend something twice" rule incidentally .

I don't know if it can be abused any other way - but it could also be an element of future-proofing.

TL:DR version:

I need to do more research before I can answer definitively. I rarely shoot rules from the Hip. Its disrespectful.

i Would say no. Because ECM says: "that your opponent targeted with an (Acc) result".

But Sloan is targeting the defense token by spending an Accuracy.

This whole discussion is as well pointless when the FAQ says that the defender is allowed to spend the defense token, no matter what the attacker has done. Currently it can be both ways.

And second: it affect only 3 squadrons at all. And two of these are not even often played (Whipser and Tie Phantom).
So Basicially it only affect Stele.

15 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

Not really.

I mean, I do. But its not a final opinion, as its awaiting a precedence check.

Its not straightforward, essentially. I know, for example, that Upgrade Cards can directly overwrite the rules of the RRG. That goes without question (its one of the Golden Rules, after all)... The question for me is wether you can incidentally do so.

You listed essentially 3 rules in the main post, but you missed one of the pertinent ones:

• A defense token cannot be spent more than once during an attack.

The Rule for ECM was written - directly - to counter the standard use of the ACC result, which results in a "May spend" that removes a "Cannot Spend" in the rulebook.

Now, that is making the assumption that, indeed, the situation is only involving a standard attack and a standard ACC result.

What I need to do now, is basically run a rules-logic check, to see what happens if we allow ECM to, essentially, override the "cannot spend something twice" rule incidentally .

I don't know if it can be abused any other way - but it could also be an element of future-proofing.

TL:DR version:

I need to do more research before I can answer definitively. I rarely shoot rules from the Hip. Its disrespectful.

You've got a much better ability to parse rules than me, so thanks for whatever input you make.

9 minutes ago, Tokra said:

i Would say no. Because ECM says: "that your opponent targeted with an (Acc) result".

But Sloan is targeting the defense token by spending an Accuracy.

This whole discussion is as well pointless when the FAQ says that the defender is allowed to spend the defense token, no matter what the attacker has done. Currently it can be both ways.

And second: it affect only 3 squadrons at all. And two of these are not even often played (Whipser and Tie Phantom).
So Basicially it only affect Stele.

I realised pretty much as i had finished writing up the question that it was incredibly niche, but since it was still at least a valid question I wasn't going to waste that hard spent effort!

18 minutes ago, Tokra said:

i Would say no. Because ECM says: "that your opponent targeted with an (Acc) result".

But Sloan is targeting the defense token by spending an Accuracy.

"Targeted" isn't defined, but the mechanic is the same. For both RRG and Sloane.

Spend Result.
Choose Target.

The difference is that you are spending a die with an accuracy icon, not spending the accuracy result. ECMs do not apply as the accuracy does not take effect.

38 minutes ago, Tokra said:

And second: it affect only 3 squadrons at all. And two of these are not even often played (Whipser and Tie Phantom).
So Basicially it only affect Stele.

EDIT: ok I see what you tried to say. Nothing to see here.

Just now, ovinomanc3r said:

Tie fighter and its uniques.

Tie interceptor and its uniques.

Tie phantom and its unique.

Tie defender and its unique.

Lambda and its unique.

Jumpmaster.

...

14 squadrons.

Because all these squadrons have at least two dice against ships....

Just now, ovinomanc3r said:

Tie fighter and its uniques.

Tie interceptor and its uniques.

Tie phantom and its unique.

Tie defender and its unique.

Lambda and its unique.

Jumpmaster.

...

14 squadrons.

Yes, but if they are only throwing 1 dice, having the token spent by them , and wanting to spend the token yourself becomes moot and irrelevant.

I realized just when push submit reply

I'll try a better way of explaining why I think what I do.

An attack is made against a ship with ECM, the attacker has an accuracy result in his dice pool, he picks the Brace token, that token is put to one side and cannot be spent by the defender. But this is where ECM comes into play, the Defender can choose to tap his ECM and put the Brace token back into the spendable defence token pool.

A Sloane attack is made, the attacker has an Accuracy result, he targets (lets say hes shooting an ISD) a Redirect token, that token is flipped from Green to Red, and this negates both Redirects from being used, as you cannot spend a token more than once per an attack. At this point in time there is no legal target for ECM to unlock from being locked by an Accuracy result, something different has occurred, ECM would have to unspend the Redirect for it to become spendable, something that cannot (yet, who knows what they will add in the future.) happen.

2 minutes ago, TheEasternKing said:

A Sloane attack is made, the attacker has an Accuracy result, he targets (lets say hes shooting an ISD) a Redirect token, that token is flipped from Green to Red, and this negates both Redirects from being used, as you cannot spend a token more than once per an attack.

Careful there.

A token cannot be spent ( by anyone ) more than once in an attack.

The defender cannot spend more than one token of the same type during an attack.

The wording in the RRG is quite precise here, and one would argue that Sloane spending a Redirect does not preclude the defender from spending another Redirect.

4 hours ago, Drasnighta said:

4 hours ago, Tokra said:

i Would say no. Because ECM says: "that your opponent targeted with an (Acc) result".

But Sloan is targeting the defense token by spending an Accuracy.

"Targeted" isn't defined, but the mechanic is the same. For both RRG and Sloane.

Spend Result.
Choose Target.

I almost agree with you, but when I read the rules again, Sloan does not target a defence token with an Accuracy Result. She spends a die with an accuracy, and targets the defence token with the Sloan Effect.

1 minute ago, JgzMan said:

I almost agree with you, but when I read the rules again, Sloan does not target a defence token with an Accuracy Result. She spends a die with an accuracy, and targets the defence token with the Sloan Effect.

Okay.

Now.

How do you target a Defense Token with an accuracy result?

You Spend the Die with an accuracy, and target the defense token with the default rulebook effect.

- its the same method. You're only replacing where the effect is written - either on an upgrade card, or in the rulebook for all to use without an upgrade card.

1 minute ago, Drasnighta said:

How do you target a Defense Token with an accuracy result?

An accuracy result has an effect. Part of that effect is to spend the die. In this way, you have targeted the defence token with the accuracy effect.

Adm. Sloan has an effect. As part of that effect, you spend a die with an Accuracy. In this way, you have targeted the defence token with the Sloan effect.

The cost is not the effect. When you spend dice for effects, you don't in any way reference the "normal" effect of the symbols on the die, weather it be damage, blocking defence tokens, or enabling critical effects.

4 minutes ago, JgzMan said:

An accuracy result has an effect. Part of that effect is to spend the die. In this way, you have targeted the defence token with the accuracy effect.

Adm. Sloan has an effect. As part of that effect, you spend a die with an Accuracy. In this way, you have targeted the defence token with the Sloan effect.

The cost is not the effect. When you spend dice for effects, you don't in any way reference the "normal" effect of the symbols on the die, weather it be damage, blocking defence tokens, or enabling critical effects.

I'm pointing out that the mechanic to activate each of these is the same:

Assuming I have Sloane (and am using a squadron which qualifies):

- In the Attacker Resolves effects portion of an attack, I may:

Spend a Die showing an Accuracy to Target a Defense token. Because the Rules say that in doing so, I can stop the enemy from using it in the next step. ( These rules are found in the RRG)

and/or

Spend a Die showing an Accuracy to Target a Defense Token. Because the Rules say that in doing so, I can spend their defense token, turning it from Readied to Exhausted, or from Exhausted to Discarded. ( These rules are found on Sloane's upgrade card)

and/or

(insert all other modify dice effects granted, such as Add any Dice I am entitled to due to Add attack die effects, Reroll any dice I am entitled to due to Reroll die effects, etc)

And of course, each die can only be spent once, because once its spent, its gone.

2 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

I'm pointing out that the mechanic to activate each of these is the same:

I understand this. This is why the question was asked in the first place; the mechanic looks the same. What I'm saying is that the mechanic is NOT the same.

Rules Reference pg 5 under "Dice Icons" - Accuracy (A): The attacker can spend this icon to choose one of the defender’s defense tokens.

Admiral Sloan (slightly trimmed) - "While ... it may spend 1 die with an Icon Dice Accuracy icon to choose and spend ..."

Critical difference: the Accuracy result spends the icon. Admiral Sloan spends the die. Thus, in one case, the defence token is target by the Accuracy. In the other, it is targeted by Sloan.

I will continue to disagree, because my argument then moves - in both instances - to the fact that it is the attacker that spends the die in both cases.

The Accuracy Icon, and the accuracy die, are fundamentally rules inanimate. They don't get to activate or do things - the things that do, in this case, the named "Attacker" (which is the squadron) is the one activating in both cases, its just which set of text its reading at the time it does it.

I certainly consider them fundamentally rules-identical...

Personally, I feel it makes the most sense that way, as I read forward and look around - certainly a bad gut feeling on opening cans of worms if, for example "Spend" in one case is not the same as "Spend" in another case, because spend is defined.......

But I think we've both said our pieces at this point, and we'll only continue to argue in circles - so I move this is an "Agree to disagree until we're both told otherwise"

3 hours ago, DiabloAzul said:

Careful there.

A token cannot be spent ( by anyone ) more than once in an attack.

The defender cannot spend more than one token of the same type during an attack.

The wording in the RRG is quite precise here, and one would argue that Sloane spending a Redirect does not preclude the defender from spending another Redirect.

Not sure I understand what you're trying to clarify here.

Didn't we already have a thread about Sloane stopping the defender spending a Def token due to her ability?