On 27/4/2017 at 8:13 AM, Sadgit said:

Previous rulings by FFG stated that the OL cannot use abilities of charmed heroes that include an element of choice indicated by "may" or or "use this card", etc

But we are talking about a weapon ability, not a hero ability,

All text printed on cards that a hero "owns" are defined as "hero abilities" . To differentiate, FFG refers to the top ability on a hero sheet as "unique hero ability". I prefer to use a capital letter ("Hero ability") for that.

7 hours ago, Sadgit said:

All text printed on cards that a hero "owns" are defined as "hero abilities".

Can you point us to the official ruling your statement is based on?

I would also reiterate what I said on the Discord channel:

The Staff of Grayhaven card reads: "After making an attack roll, you may ..." which implies that - at least in this case - "you" refers to the player that makes the attack roll. On top of that, OL can use "[Surge]: +2 Range", which is a weapon ability and surges may be spent; by analogy, the OL can use the Staff of Greyhaven's other abilty as well.

There is no official source for this convention. It's just something that most experienced Descent players use to avoid confusion.

My opinion on Dark Charm is based on unofficial FAQs by FFG and my research for the CRRG on this topic. I posted the links to the FAQs I judge to be relevant above. I have nothing new to add to that.

Until we have a definite answer by FFG, player groups have to agree how to handle this.

I received a response from Nathan in line with my intuition:

"In regard to the weapon chosen by the overlord to perform the attack by the hero who has been Dark Charmed, the overlord controls the abilities of that weapon unless they directly contradict the restrictions of Dark Charm (such as suffering fatigue). This answer is different than the answer for optional (“may” abilities) hero skills and abilities, which the hero continues to control.

Thanks!

Nathan Hajek"

Thanks for posting this. Will put in in the next version of the CRRG.

EDIT:

Here is what we have now under Dark Charm/Overlord/:

Combat

• The overlord cannot force a charmed hero to spend fatigue or exhaust cards.
• The overlord can neither force a charmed hero to equip or unequip items nor use Search cards.
• If the overlord forces a charmed hero to attack, he may declare an equipped weapon for the attack. The overlord may use any ability of that weapon that does not cost fatigue or exhausts cards.
• The overlord may use surge abilities of the charmed hero.
• The overlord cannot force a charmed hero to use skills, Hero abilities or Heroic feats which include an element of choice (indicated by “may“, “use this card” etc.). Passive effects of these abilities that do not include an element of choice are still in effect.

I would combine points 3 and 4 as "...any ability of that weapon (including surge abilities) that does not..."

Saying "surge abilities OF THE CHARMED HERO" could be read wrongly as implying use of optional hero abilities or skills... unless it's been ruled that the OL can make use of things like "Iron Will". I honestly forget and would need to look that up.

I did separate this on purpose as surge abilities on skill cards may be used by the OL controlling a charmed hero. Do you remember this long discussion on Runic Knowledge and the use of its surge ability?

I really hope that this is a general principle that holds true for other surge abilities such as Changing Skins, Openhanded (2nd ability), and Otherwordly (2nd ability).
Dark Charm is definitely the sole contender for the prize for the most-complicated-OL-card in Descent. I fear one page in the CRRG on these cards alone might not suffice in the future ...

Great post guys!

On 2017-6-6 at 11:28 AM, Sadgit said:

Dark Charm is definitely the sole contender for the prize for the most-complicated-OL-card in Descent. I fear one page in the CRRG on these cards alone might not suffice in the future ...

Sadgit and Zaltyre , Just to make sure on what ground I'm walking, can the OL use Jaes the exile or Lindel Heroic feat with a sucessfull use of Dark charm?

No. A heroic feat is not an attack action. For those characters it happens to be an action containing an attack, but you can't use Lindel's Heroic Feat via "Dark Charm" for the same reason you can't use a volucrix reaver's "Skirmish" with "Frenzy."

EDIT: Furthermore, forcing the hero to exhaust his optional "hero ability" would be a "no-no".