I wanna address a problem I'm seeing with replies to questions people post, specifically questions about pilots, upgrades, and lists. When we post replies to questions about cards/lists, we usually have used that card/list, and so we wisdom have to share. However, often people try to give advice on something they really don't have much knowledge about. I do this to, and it's not necessarily wrong to theorize, but sometimes theoretical advice (advice giving from someone who has never used that card but think they now how to use it) is untrue and misleading. For example, terrymac94 recently started a thread on Resistance Han. From the replies I saw, it was obvious many of the players had never actually used him (or only a little). They generally portrayed Resistance Han as not worth it, as being worse then the Falcon pilots like Rey, and rebel Han. You probably think the same. And you know what? I agree. He is worse. But like so many pilots and upgrades, he is much better than most people know. Many people look at Resistance Han's ability and say "So, you can just blow him up faster?" People don't realise how good he is because his usefulness isn't a number you can calculate. His ability allows him to break up enemy formations, get into range 1 of alpha strikers (that don't have prockets or APT), eliminate OL before OL can shut him down with a lock and evade, and get up close to thruster aces, and just quickly destroy things. He may not be super good, but he doesn't get enough credit. This problem is really common. Think about the jumpmaster. First it was Torp Scouts, then people realise Dengaroo is awesome too, AND THEN CAME ATTANI. IT TOOK 3 TRIES FOR PEOPLE TO DISCOVER WHAT IS NOW THE BEST CARD IN THE META. So, TRY NEW THINGS. THE META LISTS ARE GOOD, BUT THE META WAS CREATED BY PEOPLE WILLING TO TRY NEW THINGS. And PLAY THE DANG THING BEFORE TRYING TO GIVE ADVICE ABOUT IT. Sorry about the wall of text, but I felt this needed to be addressed. I apologese fr spelin errrs in advnce.

If only Vassal had it's own message board. Maybe with some play by play commentary. Where there are some on Twitch.

https://www.twitch.tv/xwingshg

https://www.twitch.tv/xwingjunkies

As for Resistance Han, well I didn't say that he wasn't any good, I just said that he is very difficult to make his ability give you an advantage. The blow up faster was a joke, more directed at Mr. H. Fords reluctance to continue the character of Han Solo then it was at how his ability is not good. You can admit Resistance Han's ability is better than Fel's Wrath, you are guaranteed to get the effect from it at least once per game.

Pfft. This is the internet!! And you're telling people are giving uninformed opinions about things they know nothing about?!! This clearly violates expected norms. Im shocked and outraged too.

Though thanks. I'm sure after this stern warning the problem will go away.

9 minutes ago, Lobokai said:

Pfft. This is the internet!! And you're telling people are giving uninformed opinions about things they know nothing about?!! This clearly violates expected norms. Im shocked and outraged too.

Though thanks. I'm sure after this stern warning the problem will go away.

Well it could be worse, it could be social media.

A lot depends on your personal style of play. The person responding to the request for advice may have a style much different from yours and what they offer may differ greatly from what a third person has experience with. If I was asked what I thought was the hardest ship to fly, my response would be the Phantom. The reason being I just started to play it. Another person with more experience with the Phantom might think I'm nuts and say Miranda Doni is the hardest because of the slam bomb drop combo.

I will agree that some suggestions are so obviously wrong that little thought or play time backed the respone.

I wasn't accusing you Marinealver I liked your post

The only thing I hate is when people ask for list advice on original squads, and half the responses are changing the list so it starts resembling one of the meta lists of the moment instead of helping them optimize what they are actually trying to run.

5 minutes ago, markcsoul said:

The only thing I hate is when people ask for list advice on original squads, and half the responses are changing the list so it starts resembling one of the meta lists of the moment instead of helping them optimize what they are actually trying to run.

Well to be fair the best list advice is compared to other meta squads. It is like what Palp Aces which was compared too the gate keepers (that let the jumpmaster through) or Whisper being called Han's bodyguard (since he was no where to be found in Waves 2 and 3). Now of course no one wants to see their list being straight up replaced with the net list but a couple of things have to be taken in consideration.

1. How does it fare when facing up against net lists?
2. If similar to a meta list then what benefit does the changes to the list provide?

Very few does a list with a slight deviation become more successful than the standard. And lists that do have slight deviations had good justifications (such as the Anti Pursuit Lasers on Super Dash) be it to counter the meta mirror (Super Dash vs Super Dash) or be better off when facing the unfavorable match up (Han vs Swarm). Some times it is just better to go with what has been tried and true than to try somethign crazy. Maybe if it was a one time thing cheese could work but in a tournament where there are multiple match ups, as Stannis Baratheon once said, " The Dwarf played his little trick, he could only do it once ".

I'll never understand why XWM people keep calling them "net lists" rather than "archetypes". Like there is something inherently wrong and dishonest in choosing an established archetype (and possibly tweaking it a little to fit your personal style, for better or for worse) rather than coming up with something that nobody else uses, which by the way is essentially impossible, plus if that's any good, you can be sure it's just an archetype waiting to happen (not all archetypes are major tier-1 archetypes).

This is not a game with a million variables, and some interactions are immediately suggested by the mechanics. Did you really need someone to tell you that Soontir Fel is good with Push the Limit? Or that you can stress twice if you put R3-A2 on a Y-Wing with title? How much net-listing was needed to multiply one TLT Thug times 4? Or to realize an Imperial Ace or x7 Defender is worth 31-35 pts, so you can field 3?

Archetypes exist because a thousand players independently realized they were an efficient use of 100 points. Some of them are stronger, or feel stronger, or are stronger in a given moment in time, so they become more popular than others. A meta is healthy not when there's no "net-listed" archetypes, but when there's a fair number of them at once (and distributed across the three factions), all more or less capable of ending top 8 in a 50-player tournament at least occasionally. When this is not happening, that's when a game company should intervene, and making changes that push toward a state of larger variety (which is important commercial-wise if they aim to sell a larger variety of their products). Unfortunately, what FFG did with the recent nerf didn't actually work in that direction at all, half the nerfs were uncalled for by the current meta and made the state worse rather than better.

I tend to think of netlists as being more specific than archetypes, and treat both as neutral terms. But I do admire players who come up with good new lists and make them work in actual play.

8 hours ago, markcsoul said:

The only thing I hate is when people ask for list advice on original squads, and half the responses are changing the list so it starts resembling one of the meta lists of the moment instead of helping them optimize what they are actually trying to run.

So true. When I try to help out someone I will usually try to guess what their intention is. Like "I want to run a U-Wing!" no further limitations - then I will be pretty liberal with the other aspects of the list, but the U-Wing belongs. List is centered around a (janky) combo? That has to stay. "I want to have acompetetive list for a tournament"? No limits, no mercy. You'd think that was the standard way of thinking, but it often isn't.

What I also don't like is people getting hyperdefensive over their squadrons, though - why put it into the listbuilding forum in the first place if you think it is perfect?

6 hours ago, Procastination said:

I was about to ask you what you were referring to and how it was relevant to the discussion, but decided I'll come back to it later.

7 hours ago, Kumagoro said:

Unfortunately, what FFG did with the recent nerf didn't actually work in that direction at all, half the nerfs were uncalled for by the current meta and made the state worse rather than better.

Worse how? There is more variety in top cuts than there was before. It was pretty much Paratanni, defenders, and some K-wings before. Now it's a multitude of Attani based scum lists (at least not just the exact same list over and over), a wide variety of rebel lists, and occasional imperial lists (with a wider variety than minimum 2 defenders).

Imperials suffered more than intended and rebels are doing better than before. Scum is still dominant, but there is more variety throughout. So I guess I don't see how it's worse, unless the placement of imperials is more important than everything else.

1 hour ago, Kharnvor said:

I was about to ask you what you were referring to and how it was relevant to the discussion, but decided I'll come back to it later.

OP's text wall could use some paragraphs, me thinks.

Yup, though it's not the worst offender on these boards. That's fairly rude to have just done the drive-by pic posting.

And clearly my play on the poster's username was far too subtle.

13 minutes ago, Kharnvor said:

And clearly my play on the poster's username was far too subtle.

Ah, I get it. Honestly, I didn't even look at the username

10 hours ago, Procastination said:

I second this.

A lot.

This is my favorite pat of a thread. The part where it just becomes random humor. Unfortunately, the humor is far too subtle for me to understand.

6 hours ago, Sekac said:

Worse how? There is more variety in top cuts than there was before. It was pretty much Paratanni, defenders, and some K-wings before. Now it's a multitude of Attani based scum lists (at least not just the exact same list over and over), a wide variety of rebel lists, and occasional imperial lists (with a wider variety than minimum 2 defenders).

Imperials suffered more than intended and rebels are doing better than before. Scum is still dominant, but there is more variety throughout. So I guess I don't see how it's worse, unless the placement of imperials is more important than everything else.

I guess we're reading the meta in a different way, but regardless, if one of the only three factions has been pushed out of the meta (and it has been, there's really not a case for thinking "a wider variety of imperial lists" is a thing that actually exists at the top of the current meta), then something went very, very wrong. The first thing to do should always be to maintain a balance between the playability of the three factions at any level. Again, it's just good commercial practice, since one faction equals to one third of all the products they sell.

1 hour ago, Kumagoro said:

I guess we're reading the meta in a different way, but regardless, if one of the only three factions has been pushed out of the meta (and it has been, there's really not a case for thinking "a wider variety of imperial lists" is a thing that actually exists at the top of the current meta), then something went very, very wrong. The first thing to do should always be to maintain a balance between the playability of the three factions at any level. Again, it's just good commercial practice, since one faction equals to one third of all the products they sell.

More and more 3 imperial ace lists are cropping up, they're just not the arc dodgy aces of Olde, they're more face punchy synergy lists with Quickdraw, Vessery and such. They might not be in the toppest of top cuts, but every faction has been at that spot at some time or another.

They're trying to balance a 3 way teeter totter and they mess things up a bit. I'd rather walk around a tournament and see a wider variety of lists and more even faction distribution, than wandering around and counting how many duplicate lists are being flown.

I'm never in the top cuts of anything higher than store champs (though I do like to hover just outside them), so I don't worry about what lists end up on the top tables. But the people up there are usually the same people regardless of what's good. So I let them worry about THE list, and I'll enjoy flying something I love the best I can.

I only get bothered when people all over the room feel pressured to duplicate exact lists. Since the FAQ, things have opened up a little bit more and there's more experimentation in general.

"The real problem with feedback on posts" is that we have to do that stupid 1 straight next turn.

.....yes, I'm bored.

24 minutes ago, clanofwolves said:

"The real problem with feedback on posts" is that we have to do that stupid 1 straight next turn.

.....yes, I'm bored.

ha.

I wish it wasn't so common, but it is something we're all guilty of at some point.

16 hours ago, Psalm 112 said:

This is my favorite pat of a thread. The part where it just becomes random humor. Unfortunately, the humor is far too subtle for me to understand.

I did want to say that although your OP could have used a bit of paragraph structure, I do generally agree with your points. If one has not actually played with the ships/squads in question, one should try to avoid posting as if they are an authority or expert on the subject.