So I was poking around the Lexicanum (an excellent source for Warhammer 40k lore) wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Category:Naval_Vessels and I was reading over their navel ship descriptions, and I discovered something rather irritating.

The ship hulls described in Chapter 8 only offer a small number of the actual ships built by the Imperium.

They don’t even include an entire class of large capital battleship such as the Emperor, Apocalypse, and the Oberon class. What if my Rouge Trader was a powerful lord-militant in the Imperial Navy and when he left the service for the depths of the expanse, he took his powerful flagship with him?

While not totally surprising, I wanted to know if there are any rules for the other ship classes (possibly from Dark Heresy) or guidelines for creating custom hulls?

Any suggestions would help,

Jason

It's unlikely they'd let him take any ship, much less a flagship, that aside: Rogue Traders have to make whatever ship they use pay, dedicated and huge (relative even to other 40K vessels) warships would be much less economically feasible. If you do want them, though, there's quite a lot of info online from which you can extrapolate and if you can get hold of Battlefleet Gothic, that'd be useful to you.

I doubt that the Imperium would let you run off with a battleship. That said there are rules translated from BFG.

http://www.darkreign40k.com/ships-of-the-void/new-download-ships-of-the-imperial-navy-2.html

I'm pretty sure, FFG will present us soon with some starship compendium for rouge trader, including lots of ships and components and all that nice stuff we would love to know about starships. Until then those few ship in the rulebook or some carefull easy conversations from BFG should do.

Beside that, I would strongly suggest to reconsider thoughts about battleships and other pure warships. First of all, rogue traders are mainly traders which means they are after profit (as the profit-factor should suggest). Warships, especially large warships are, as any secretary of defense or commerce could tell you, just huge blackholes for cash and profit. They cost unbelievable amounts of resources to keep up and their use for traders pretty limited.

It would be another story, if you'd play a session of "Warmonger 40k" or... lets say Battlefleet Gothic, but for "Rogue Trader" they are pretty useless. Sure, you can float on in orbit or let it exit the warp at the ptich of some struggle against a large fleet of xenos to save the day, but in any case, you don't really need complete stats for them.

Actually you really don't want your players to own something as powerfull as a battleship, since you would end up with either pretty boring space battles or you have to throw in atleast one oposing battleship into the fray of every battle. Not very "realistic" even for the 40k-universe.

Couldn't agree more, Nadomir. Especially regarding the fact that Rogue Traders use armed merchantmen rather than dedicated battleships.

While I agree a RT would never have a battleship of his own unless he was in command of a Crusade of something. (Even then battleships are very rare in 40k.) I'm not sure that you could say a RT only has a merchant vessels. Even in BFG the RT ships are full warpships stat wise. The RTs are a diverse lot. Some are mainly merchants, others are intrepid explorers, and a few are little better than pirates. There is a reason there are merchant hulls as well as raiders, frigates, and cruisers in the main book.

If an RT uses it, it's an armed merchantman. It's actually closer to the Q-vessel idea, in many cases, I suspect but undoubtedly some sacrifice a lot of potential cargo space to weapons or troops - after all, the milk runs where you want a huge cargo capacity are the routes you already secured and sold off.

Exactly... armed merchantships are far fom being true warships. Yes, they are armed, but true warships with the sole purpose of combat usually are much more heavily armed and more specialized for combat. They sport better shields, more and/or heavier weapons, troops and so on.Of course you can outfit your RT-owned vessel in a similar way but again at the cost of profit und higher upkeep costs. It would need a quite high profit factor to maintain such a ship.

But of course it's possible to play a military-oriented RT and his staff. The 40k-Universe is defenitily big and diverse enough for all of that... and much, much more

In my own game, we're definitely outfitted towards that end of the scale - we have a sizable IG complement and fifty Astartes - but my character is in it for the profit (and inherited the current ship and arrangement).

I wonder how you manage to maintain the loyalty of 50 Spacemarines...

nadomir said:

Give them things to kill In the Name of the Emperor?

The Q-ships are very nice inspiration. Maybe it's time to come up with some nice new components and manouvers along the Q-ship/"sheep in wolves clothing" line?

"Make a show of fleeing, panicky and disorganised, like a whaler might" - Capt. Jno. Aubrey, Esq.

I've made a load of background for my current rogue trader campaign and only one Rogue Trader in the Expanse has a battleship, its also described to my PCs as the "Biggest ship in the sector".

I've also created a cruiser as a pure navy ship, its far more formidably armed than it needs to be and is truly deadly, but it would make a lame rogue trader vessel.

Rogue traders need versatile vessels, multi-role with the ability to adapt to situations. Pure naval vessels aren't like this, they are warships.

Also, while talking about battleships, no battleship would leave port alone. It would be accompanied by a battlegroup, maybe a pair of cruisers and a squadron of 6 destroyers, couple of supply vessels maybe.

Treat them as carriers are treated in naval combat now. supported by defensive cruisers, frigates and supply vessels. It would be a rare rogue trader that can afford to run that when they could get far more profit out of smaller, cheaper vessels.

That said, i've nothing against my players getting a battleship, they just learn to be fully aware of how bad it is at pretty much anything but war. And the cost would be huge. And its not like they have them around for sale.

We don't have to maintain their loyaly - Astartes are a law unto themselves and my character doesn't ask them too many questions about their motivation or whinge too often about the way they don't say their prayers...

Out of game I know the backstory; remember that marines are fanatically loyal to their chapter and do what their Master tells them.

I'm not sure how a ship described as a "raider" is an armed mechant vessel, or how a sword frigate some how becomes an armed merchant when it's owned by an RT? Maybe if you stick a cargo hold in it you could call it that, but the raiders, frigates, and cruiser are warships not merchant vessels.

Dalnor Surloc said:

For a Rogue Trader, everything involves trade... even if you're simply trading macrocannon shells with an enemy.

Remember, the Sword-, Dauntless- and Lunar-class hulls in the rulebook represent the basic superstructure only. An Imperial Navy Lunar-class Cruiser is a specific combination of that hull and a number of different components (most characteristically, an armoured prow fitted with torpedo tubes, port and starboard broadside macrocannons, and port and starboard lance batteries)... but the cruiser owned by a Rogue Trader will have been customised and refitted and changed - the torpedoes may have been removed to provide cargo space, for example, or the weapon components may be different.

Aye, this ^. Rulebook specifically mentions that torpedoes are likely to be removed, in order to make more cargo space.

The operative words being may or likely. Also not all warships have torps. The sword frigate being a prime example of this. Keep in mind most imperial cruisers are based on the same hull as the lunar class cruiser. You can't claim a Dominator class cruiser isn't a warship. Not to mention all the various chaos cruisers..

A more compelling reason to remove the torps is that you'll tend to run out of torps on long trips into the expanse.

Dalnor Surloc said:

You're focussing very much on one single element, and ignoring the whole point.

A Sword-class Frigate in BFG/Imperial Navy terms is something distinct from the Sword-class hull available in the Rogue Trader rulebook. The same can be said for the Lunar-class or Dauntless-class hulls compared to the classes that share their names in service to the Imperial Navy.

The Sword-class used by the Imperial Navy is a specific combination of components assembled within and around a specific hull... it is a warship by merit of the components it is constructed from, and the purpose it will be used for. A Rogue Trader's vessel made from a Sword-class hull (the same hull as used by the Navy as the core of the Sword-class Frigates) is not inherently a Sword-class Frigate as the Imperial Navy classifies them, because it will have different components and be used for a different purpose.

A Dominator-class Cruiser is a warship. That isn't a matter for dispute, nor is it something anyone on this thread has ever attempted to argue. However, the vessels used by Rogue Traders are not the same as those used by the Imperial Navy - they consist of different sets of components and are used for a different purpose. That is, afterall, the point of having a starship creation system, rather than just a list of ready-made starship classes to from.

For a real life analogue, several former Royal Navy combat vessels have been sold, in recent times, to other nations. They were stripped of most of their military eqipment, especially any weapon systems and bespoke electronics. The buyer nation then refitted them as warships for their own navies and renamed the vessels. These new vessels are not the same class as the British vessels, built on identical hulls, which they once served alongside and are nowhere near the same league in terms of effectiveness (in many cases, anyway). It's the specific fitting that makes a warship fit for purpose, not any mystical property of the hull nor simply putting some guns on it (US Coast Guard vessels are not warships).

And what I'm arguing is that by RT rules you can outfit ships to military levels at the start of the game. For example a sword frigate could in fact be more powerful than a naval one. As the RT ship can have xenos and aerchotech equipment. In you look at the lunar cruiser in the gm kit it's armed with Mars pattern macrocannon broadsides, and titanforge lance batteries. Other than the torpedo tubes it's all in the main book, and the ship is no more powerful than a lunar cruiser a RT could get. (Assuming you had the SP points which is questionable.) Nothing on this lunar cruiser is out of line with what you could fit yourself.

Dalnor Surloc said:

And that's an issue why? I wasn't stating that Rogue Trader vessels are all, without exception, less capable militarily than those of the Imperial Navy, merely that they've got considerable potential to be different .

It is, afterall, extraordinarily dangerous in the Koronus Expanse and other such uncharted regions. Having a vessel capable of dealing serious damage in a fight is extremely useful in such a place. How much of your ship's space you want to devote to 'things that go boom' is an individual matter, however.

The point here is that the nature of a ship's hull does not define its purpose. Rogue Traders are an incredibly diverse group of individuals, with many different approaches to their goals and duties. To describe any given Rogue Trader's vessel as an 'armed merchant ship' is technically accurate given that a Rogue Trader is as easily described as an 'armed merchant'. When considered in such a way, it doesn't really matter what the vessel actually is, so much as the deeds that vessel is used to perform.

I think you are talking at cross purposes to a degree fellas. I think part of the confusion has arisen in that some posters seem to be stating that Rogue traders use Armed Merchantmen with no exceptions, which is a curious/proscriptive attitude.

Personally I think Rogue Traders tend to have a fairly impressive central ship with as much oomph as they can afford and then will add alongside that a little pocket fleet of specialist ships. After all you can still get the bonus from components on the other ships you bring with you. Ideally for my choice a huge battlewagon with gold plated statues of the emperor, big guns and bulging barracks to lay down the the smack and command the shock and awe and a bunch of transports to haul away the loot and bring my private cannon fodder with wich to aquire this loot.

Rogue Traders are not military, even if they are very well-armed, they remain essentially merchants (that's why they have 'trader' in the name) and thus, by definition, any vessel they use is an 'armed merchantman' and not a warship. Further to that, the pursuit of profit means that they cannot afford to run a dedicated warship, on formal military lines, as their main endeavour; such vessels are money-sinks, they not only don't break even they require massive and continuous streams of resources to keep operational and their purpose is making war, not money.

That doesn't mean that a well-heeled RT couldn't maintain what amounts to a flagship; a vessel sufficiently well armed and armoured as to stand up to real military vessels or even defeat them but it does mean he better be making money hand-over-fist with his other vessels because he won't be making it with that one.

There are undoubtly, a large number of minimally armed vessels held by RT dynasties and other groups. In the 40k genre, the definition of 'minimally armed' is pretty relative I imagine, when the whole setting is defined by constant conflict.

Under most settings, i would completely agree that a 'trader' should not be standing toe to toe with its counterpart in the navy, especially at the beginning of a campaign. In this setting, i would have to disagree: A RT is a lone operative that can and will travel beyond the realm of the Imperium with the express purpose of expanding it (and getting rich in the process), whether through force and/or trade. A RT vessel is the velvet glove mailed fist of the Imperium in many 'first encounters': whether that is impressing, assaulting or repeling hostile or indifferent humans or xenos.

The difference between an RT frigate and a naval frigate is organization. A naval frigate is part of task force or a fleet group.

An RT frigate could, in theory, be better equipped and armed than its naval counterpart: however, the naval frigate is part of a naval group that one way or another reports to the Segmentum Fleet: that can utterly extinguish your dynasty (or just you and your ship, bringing shame to your dynasty and the charter to the next of kin, with a firm warning against being an upstart).

As a RT you could attempt to prey on the navy when the opportunity presents itself, but you better hope you have an awesome, and corrupt, astropath working for you - otherwise you're going to have a nasty surprise when you return to civilization.

Given that the original rogue trader was said to be a "freelance explorer, conquistador and merchant". (Note that Merchant is last there.) It's changed over the years with some sources making RT's into merchants than anything else But still there are numerous current examples of original style of RT in 40K fluff. The Andy Hoare Rogue Trader series has the Rogue Trader vessels being put in the main line of battle with other naval ships. In the RT RPG main book there are numerous examples of Rogue Traders being handed missions to exterminate whole xenos races. These sort of things require a ship that is the equal Imperial Naval vessel.

It also important to note that the RT as presented in the main book are backed by extensive holdings. There is very little indication that the RT dynasty requires the vessel the PCs are using to stay in the black. (Unless of course you limit the PC's initial profit factor or they start with a cruiser.) The default setting for RT is one where the PCs could simply sit back on their massive fortune comfortably for the rest of their lives. The average PC group has a profit factor greater than an imperial noble. The PCs don't increase their profit factor through bring a cargo of X to port Y. They do it by colonizing a planet, by looting a pirate ship, finding lost priceless technology. These things do more than just put money in a bank account.

All of which is not to say that the PCs can't build a poorly armed merchant vessel designed for trade. A GM and PCs need to both be on board with that, but I can see how that would be an interesting game.

PS- Has anyone else considered that about 1/5 of all the ships in BFG are in big trouble in a straight conversion to RT rules. I'm speaking of the lance ships. In BFG they worked because a hit from any ship took down shields. So you could put in a bunch of frigates to handle shields and then hit them with your lance ships. But in RT you need to combine lance with another weapon to be effective.